California Pollution: Made in China?

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/12/01/california-pollution-made-in-china/?mg=blogs-wsj&url=http%253A%252F%252Fblogs.wsj.com%252Fchinarealtime%252F2010%252F12%252F01%252Fcalifornia-pollution-made-in-china

by undo • 12 years ago

49 31 12 years ago

blogs.wsj.com

adamfeldman• 12 years ago

As we learn more about how global systems are connected, it's going to be fascinating to watch the geopolitics work themselves out.

So far a number of signs point to many effects of pollution occurring oceans away from the polluter. This won't be fun to work out, because much of international relations is based around well-defined borders in the proximity of the landmass of the country itself. But winds and waves know no limits.....

EDIT: e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch, http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100809/full/news.2010.396.ht...

GigabyteCoin• 12 years ago

What a terrible article...

It claims there is 'A lot' of pollution coming from China specifically and ending up in California.

The way they deduced this 'fact' is that 208Pb levels spiked at the same times in both China and California. That tells you absolutely nothing.

fiatmoney• 12 years ago

The paper goes into greater detail; "a lot" ~ 29% in this case.

Using regionally specific isotope mixes to identify sources of pollution seems like a pretty good idea; why shouldn't it work?

seandougall• 12 years ago

Well, the article makes it sound like they're basing the research on the assumption that the 208Pb comes from Asia simply because it spikes in the spring. I would hope they have reason to believe in the specificity of that marker for Asian pollution, rather than actually engaging in such wild speculation, but if they do, the article skips over it.

Also, the non-sequitur about iPhones and iPads at the end is completely random and seemingly pointless.

Also needs "[2010]".

jamesaguilar• 12 years ago

This comment is not accurate. Both locations measured were in California. The correlation to Asia is the timing of the spikes and dust storms in Asia.

Not a climate scientist, so I don't know how good of an argument that is, but if you're going to post a strongly worded response you best characterize the opposing arguments correctly.

kaybe2• 12 years ago

The correlation is the ratio of the lead isotopes, which is specific for that Asien region. Lead from other sources has a different isotope ratio. (Don't have data right now so I don't know how specific it is.) (Of course, mixing has to be taken into account when backtracking.)

It is actually a pretty good argument. However, it only applies to PM2.5 lead itself, since different materials can behave very differently (chemistry etc). Also, how and where the lead came from the metal ores and coal into the air is not part of the research.

maerF0x0• 12 years ago

NOTE: 2010 article

goggles997• 12 years ago

How ironic that CA made such swift and strangling economic regulations that all the factories moved to china or shut down.

Now we have no control of the egregious pollution that China produces and the world (including CA) is far worse off because of it.

Why can't politicians and activists just have a little foresight for a change? This kind of thing always seems to happen. Unintended consequences will always happen, but when people warned of this years ago and the powers that be did not listen... SMH

omegaworks• 12 years ago

I'm not sure how the situation you describe isn't a catch-22.

You state that if CA regulates their factories, for example: requiring that they meet strict pollution standards, they will move. When they move, CA no longer has jurisdiction over the excrement they shoot into the air.

So you state that CA should just not regulate their factories.

This doesn't sound like a solution at all.

dantheman• 12 years ago

I believe the argument the parent was making has to do with too strict controls. For instance, regulation of release of particle X can be 0%, limited to 25%, or 50%. CA regulates it at 50% so everyone moves to a 0% region. CA would have been better off if they regulated at the 25% and had them stay in CA.

thrownaway24242• 12 years ago

The solution is to tax goods originating in places with inferior environmental (or labor, or human rights, or whatever you care about) standards to the degree that the difference in regulatory costs is moot.

goggles997• 12 years ago

That is why I used the term "swift and strangling". They were too aggressive and now the planet has to pay. This is akin to vigilantes who end up killing innocents because they are overzealous. Unfortunately, these politicians don't have to answer to anyone. Imagine that, a group of "environmentalists" pushing stiff regulations actually caused more damage then they thought they would prevent. Idiots.

They could have done far more incremental regulating over a longer period of time and the world would have been a much better place because of it. How do these environmentalist planet wreckers sleep at night?

seanmcdirmid4• 12 years ago

How ironic CA actually gives a crap about the air their citizens breathe, wait, no, that's not ironic at all. Believe me china is beginning to give a crap also, in a major way. No one can live with sucky air, even the Chinese (and us expats who have to deal with crazy bad air quality...).

goggles997• 12 years ago

How ironic CA actually gives a crap about the air their citizens breathe, wait, no, that's not ironic at all. Believe me china is beginning to give a crap also, in a major way. No one can live with sucky air, even the Chinese (and us expats who have to deal with crazy bad air quality...).

Even if they do eventually start cleaning up their act (which I doubt) the price has already been paid. The world now has to bear far greater amounts of global pollution (not just in the air either) than it would have if politicians and activists in the US had just taken a more incremental (and less stifling) approach.

Their blind and foolish over aggression in environmental policies resulted in worse consequences for the planet. That is plain to see now. Of course hind sight is 20/20, but there were plenty of people warning that this would happen so full blame is on the table IMO.

Did you know that 16 ships create as much pollution as all the cars in the world. These are the ships that transport these goods and raw materials to and from China http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1229857/How-1...

itchitawa• 12 years ago

In other news - China Global Warming: Made in America?

judk3• 12 years ago

Flag this post, because HN is nowhere near mature enough to have an intelligent conversation about this topic.

manicdee• 12 years ago

There was a science fiction short story I read about someone who was an officer in the pollution control agency in some random city in the USA. This officer was tracking down an illegal vehicle (it was petrol powered, and being picked up by city-wide microphones). It turns out the owner of the vehicle was the head honcho of the pollution control agency, who had seen the pollution from China reaching the Eastern seaboard of the USA and decided it was game over: no point complying with pollution regulations when the pollution from China was going to kill everyone anyway.

From memory the story was called "The Breath of the Dragon". I think it was in an Isaac Asimov "Analog" magazine.

California Pollution: Made in China?

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