Nvidia marketing manager killed during train rescue attempt

http://www.polygon.com/2014/1/25/5344390/nvidia-marketing-manager-killed-during-train-rescue-attempt

by htsh • 12 years ago

206 129 12 years ago

polygon.com

wakaflaka• 12 years ago

A heroic and brave person no matter who he worked for. Rest well kind stranger.

smoyer3• 12 years ago

Well-said ...

Putting someone else's well-being above your own life is the mark of a true human. I hope if I was in that position, I'd have tried to help too.

danellis2• 12 years ago

A stranger's life? I hope he didn't have kids.

huherto• 12 years ago

Very difficult situation. Very hard to risk your life to save another. But how do you live your life knowing that you could have saved another life but you were not brave enough. Scares me just to think about being in that predicament.

bkor• 12 years ago

Not to be harsh, but in my first responder as well as my first aid training the first thing is "check for your own safety". If unsafe, then be as selfish as you can. If I was in a helpless situation, I hope I don't still try and help with the result that both don't survive.

e.g. fire and person inside some room is really far away, lots of smoke, cannot see, heat, etc? Close the door, you cannot help and you'll very likely die.

As said: This is taught during first aid and first responder courses.

doorhammer2• 12 years ago

“It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known.”

GuiA• 12 years ago

Those Caltrain accidents seem to happen all the frigging time [1]. I'm not sure much can be done about them, but every time I hear about one my heart sinks a little lower. Is there any obvious thing that I'm missing that could be done?

[1]: 12 a year on average apparently: http://kalw.org/post/caltrain-engineer-talks-about-coping-tr...

ZanyProgrammer3• 12 years ago

Most Caltrain deaths are suicides, and its hard to stop people who stand on a platform, waiting for a Baby Bullet to pass through. That's the reality of having stations skipped.

pbsurf• 12 years ago

And it's not just at stations. Four high school students committed suicide at the same crossing in Palo Alto in 2009, so a security guard was hired to patrol it [1]. There is still a guard there today.

[1] http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_13912677

stickydink• 12 years ago

I notice in the BART stations, there's sort of a lip on the platform edge that (if you have time) you can tuck yourself into so you avoid being hit. Do the Caltrain stations not have this? Of course, it assumes that the chap who was on the tracks initially, was there by accident.

kposehn6• 12 years ago

Caltrain stations have low platforms instead of the raised ones Bart uses, removing the ability to have a "suicide nook" (railroad slang)

jakobe2• 12 years ago

Most subway stations in Singapore have walls with doors between the train and the platform. The doors open only after the train arrived and stopped. (It's similar to elevator doors.)

Makes it impossible to fall or jump on the tracks.

TrainedMonkey• 12 years ago

Same at SFO.

ZanyProgrammer3• 12 years ago

Its too expensive to do that to all Caltrain stations. The reality is there are better things to spend money on for Caltrain (like electrification).

ZanyProgrammer3• 12 years ago

I believe that is just for AirBart shuttle, not for the regular trains.

undoware7• 12 years ago

...or, you know, we could just fix the underlying social injustices that cause so many people to seek to end their lives that it causes friggin delays in my busy little life. Those jerks.

yeukhon• 12 years ago

Are Singapore trains indoor and/or on highway bridge? Most caltrains stations are open platform. Not sure if you have ever been on a caltrain, it runs between suburban area so anyone can just lay herself on the track at any point.

product502• 12 years ago

I would rather spend more money on widening the 101 freeway or building a new one rather than spending ton of money on Caltrain doors.

a3_nm• 12 years ago

Agreed. We have them in Paris at a minority of stations. Hopefully this will eventually be ubiquitous and not having them, like elevators with no internal doors, will seem extremely outdated.

(Yes, this must be costly, but it's not just relevant to prevent suicides. I have once been at the very brink of a subway platform in Paris without that did not have such equipment, along with a huge crowd of other people who were eager to get in the train. Anyone behind could just push anybody on the (electrified) tracks, and if panic were to break out for any reason it would have been a disaster.)

wtracy• 12 years ago

For every station platform, there's half a dozen pedestrian-accessible grade crossings. There's nothing you could really do without rebuilding the whole thing.

jeffdavis• 12 years ago

How about an emergency alarm/buzzer that alerts incoming trains to anything on the tracks -- people or obstructions.

Low tech, but would offer a way to help people without risking your own life.

You'd need surveillance or something to prevent people from using it as a prank though.

kbrosnan• 12 years ago

Trains take miles to come to a complete stop. Unless the person is standing in the tracks for minutes these would be ineffective.

ww520• 12 years ago

Caltrain tracks go through high stress areas in the Bay Area where more people are prone to suicide. It's a readily available mean nearby to get it done quickly. I've known a friend of a friend done it after years of depression. A number of students in Palo Alto high school have done it on the track. Palo Alto high school is very competitive and students are under enormous pressure from parents to do well.

auctiontheory3• 12 years ago

Palo Alto High ("Paly") is next to the train tracks, but the suicide cluster was from Gunn High, across town, not from Paly.

aquadrop• 12 years ago

Most deaths are suicide. So even spending a lot of money and effort won't help, because the root of the problem is psychological, not technical.

n1ghtmare_• 12 years ago

A brave man. RIP.

dctoedt4• 12 years ago

With the greatest respect and sympathy for a guy who had to make a snap judgment in the moment, I have to question that judgment. He inflicted a terrible loss on his own wife and family -- and to what end?

Original article in the Merc: http://www.mercurynews.com/twitter/ci_24989424/tech-worker-k....

undoware7• 12 years ago

...and yet, had he succeeded, we would be praising him. Google the 'moral luck' paradox, it applies here.

gpmcadam• 12 years ago

Come on, it's HN. If he had succeeded, the top comments would still have been critical in some way ;)

(And yes, I understand the irony of this comment!)

belluchan• 12 years ago

You're getting downvoted, but I agree that we shouldn't be praising this kind of behavior out of context. The guy was unquestionably brave, had good intentions, but probably terrible judgement.

pragone• 12 years ago

I find your comment fascinating purely because it's a concept that I've never been able to understand. While I can begin to understand what you're saying about the loss he inflicted on his wife and family, the life he could have saved far outweighs that loss; as I said, I couldn't live my life any other way. I often try to wrap my head around the concept of putting myself and my family before my fellow man, but it's one that just doesn't come to me easily.

gus_massa2• 12 years ago

For simplicity, let’s assume that you value all human equally. Then the question if not if he could have saved a life. The question is if (under similar circumstances) the probability of dying was less than the probability of saving the other person. I think it’s not reasonable to attempt a rescue with a 90% dying chance, knowing that there is only a 10% chance of success. On the other hand I think it’s reasonable to attempt a rescue with a 10% dying chance, knowing that there is a 90% chance of success. It’s very difficult to estimate the chances in this case, because we don’t know all the circumstances, the available information and the point of view. And it’s impossible to be sure how I would have reacted in the very short time that was available.

And if you want a more complex model and don’t mind using made up numbers, I’d prefer to weight myself and my family members with 2 points, and give my daughter at least 5 points.

Condolences to both families.

hueving2• 12 years ago

The life of the survivor is more important than his? How can you make that kind of judgment? A person responsible for providing for a family has just as much social value as an arbitrary man hanging out on some railroad tracks.

To mindlessly kill yourself for any person is pointless, especially if that person is already suicidal. The burden of knowing someone died to save you is not something depressed people cope with well.

doorhammer2• 12 years ago

I upvoted you. I completely respect what this guy did, and honestly, hope I'd do the same, but I don't think we should ever avoid rational discussion about whether or not something really is the best thing to do, or just what feels like the right thing to do.

Of course, I don't think anyone here, parent included, would be so tactless as to bring this up with anyone closely connected to the situation during their time of loss, but I don't think it's good to shy away from asking difficult moral questions.

rdl4• 12 years ago

There is also a difference between doing nothing and doing things in a way which might be less effective than maximum effort but which would be safer for yourself.

e.g. if I'm alone and unarmed, and I see someone stopped involuntarily by the side of the road and relatively safe, in a bad area, in a normal-to-sketchy car, etc., I will probably call the police to report it, rather than stopping myself. If I see an elderly person in a rich area in a non-threatening car with a flat tire, I'll possibly stop and offer to help, or at least put better flares or whatever behind his car and make sure he's ok for water/health while waiting. If I see an actual accident in realtime, or the aftermath of an obvious accident, with likely trauma to passengers, I'll almost always stop (unless police/paramedics are already there).

Similarly, if someone was standing on the tracks with an approaching train, I'd verbally command him how to GTFO, and possibly belt/bag-as-rope, but particularly if it were an adult stranger who is potentially suicidal or otherwise unlikely to cooperate, I'd be instinctively reluctant to get in front of the train myself. Someone who accidentally fell would scare me less, but would also be more likely to be able to get out on his own or with assistance from the platform.

But the time to make all these decisions is well in advance of the incident; what level of comfort you have with different kinds of threats, skills in dealing with things, etc. I'd probably be more comfortable with water rescues (since I actually trained for this as a dive master) than most people, but less comfortable dealing with crazy/mentally unstable people, and more comfortable with end-a-hostile-threat vs. prevent-self-harm.

rdl4• 12 years ago

People make mistakes, and "in the heat of the moment" is exactly the time when people don't have time to rather all the facts and rationally evaluate them for likely outcomes.

I've accepted what I thought at the time was a relatively low risk to myself to extricate someone, and it later turned out to have been vastly more dangerous than I'd thought originally. I made a quick assessment of the risks and my capabilities, was wrong, and got lucky. (I generally weight my own survival disproportionately highly vs. that of others, too, so I don't think I'm really reckless.)

I judge people much more harshly for situations where they have a long time to reflect and choose not to.

In this case, he probably either thought the train was slowing/stopping, and thus he'd have more time, or that he could extricate the person more quickly than he did. It might be the case that what he did had a high expected chance of success and he was just unlucky, or he had wrong information in the instants before, or overestimated his abilities, or underestimated the difficulty, or just had bad judgement; we probably won't know.

lvs2• 12 years ago

You believe you're hiding behind some kind of moral high-ground by making reference to his wife and family, all while criticizing a man who gave his life for a stranger. What a sickening sentiment you've seen fit to express publicly. A society based on your moral code would be no better than anarchy. If someone sticks out their neck someday for you, risking it all, will you perhaps be capable of a humanist thought then?

ryanjshaw2• 12 years ago

Given the lack of details presented in the article the GP linked to, and the many scenarios I can think of which on the surface would have appeared "risky but not Darwin Award risky", I must conclude that either GP is psychic or is feeling insecure about knowing he'd never make the same decision in the presumed scenario that so many here are respecting, and is attempting to protect his self-esteem by asserting his perspective is the only rational perspective.

DerpDerpDerp3• 12 years ago

The first thing they teach you about rescuing drowning people is to make sure you don't drown too.

How is this any different?

It's entirely possible that he made an error in judgment, and made the whole situation worse because there are two people wounded (well, one dead, one wounded), while despite any attempt he made, there would have been at least one.

I wouldn't want someone to try to save me if I were going to die either way, and they were going to die if they tried.

crystaln• 12 years ago

How is it a sickening sentiment to consider the overall consequences of throwing one's self in front of a train to save a stranger?

If my wife were in the same situation, I sure hope she'd consider the effect on me and our children if she were hit by a train before entering such a dangerous situation without any understanding of the overall circumstance

Everybody can't and shouldn't always be a superhero.

dctoedt4• 12 years ago

You believe you're hiding behind some kind of moral high-ground by making reference to his wife and family, all while criticizing a man who gave his life for a stranger.

It's a question of which duty takes priority. I like to think that I'd take some risks to save someone else. I've never had occasion to put it to the test, but it certainly was pounded into me in the military in my younger days.

In civilian life, I'm not going to knowingly put myself anywhere near grave danger on behalf of an adult stranger (the calculus might be different for a child). Granted, there's always the possibility of misjudgment in the heat of the moment, as other commenters have pointed out. Even so, I'm going to err on the side of caution -- because as between an adult stranger and my family, there's absolutely no question in my mind where my higher duty lies.

product502• 12 years ago

There is nothing sickening about it. It was a bad judgment call considering the grave risks involved. Extrapolating the parent commenter's moral code to deduce that he/she is apathetic is wrong - the parent commenter might still care about society up till a certain risk level (which could be inflicted on him). And beyond that he/she may not. I don't see anything wrong with that.

nate_meurer2• 12 years ago

Decisions that people make in the "rescuing someone from the tracks in front of a fast approaching train" scenario cannot, in my humble opinion, be productively analyzed in the context of our ordinary lives. The situation is simply too extraordinary, and I'm not even sure "judgment" in the normal sense is a term that can be usefully applied to many folks in this situation.

Take all of your fears, drives, and insecurities, add your unreliable risk-assessing abilities (common to most humans) and an amount of adrenaline that many of us will never experience, and cram them into the space of seconds in the face of certain death, in front of an audience. I simply don't see the use of second-guessing a decision made under those circumstances.

For example, it could well be that someone "freezes" in motion, unable to discontinue the effort, compelled by adrenaline and emotion and whatever else. I've experienced this myself in far less serious situations.

Or it could be Mr. Scholz was in complete control of his faculties, and made a ordered, rational decision to keep up the effort at all costs. We'll never know.

It's fun to think about what I might do, but I have no way to relate to the actions of someone else. It's just too complicated.

dctoedt4• 12 years ago

Take all of your fears, drives, and insecurities, add your unreliable risk-assessing abilities (common to most humans) and an amount of adrenaline that many of us will never experience, and cram them into the space of seconds in the face of certain death, in front of an audience. I simply don't see the use of second-guessing a decision made under those circumstances.

That's why you have to try to war-game these things in advance -- because in the heat of the moment you won't have time or capability to analyze them rationally. (It's the same reason why athletes and soldiers and sailors train incessantly, so that they can rely largely on trained pattern recognition, a.k.a. reflex.)

----

It's fun to think about what I might do, but I have no way to relate to the actions of someone else. It's just too complicated.

Um, OK.

squintychino• 12 years ago

I hope if I'm ever in trouble that you're not around. Because if you are, I'm as good as dead while you think about what the best judgement call is.

This man acted bravely by trying to save this stranger, this fellow human being. Since no one else stepped up to help (or did I miss the part in the article where it talked about everyone trying to lend a helping hand?) he took it upon himself to do the decent HUMAN thing and try to help.

It's easy to criticize and pick apart this man's actions and judgement from behind your keyboard and after the fact. This man did a brave thing that had bad consequences. Yes it's a sad loss for this family, but this man is a hero in my book. He died trying to help people, regardless of whether he knew them or not.

dctoedt4• 12 years ago

Yes it's a sad loss for this family, but this man is a hero in my book.

Out of curiosity, are you married? Do you have kids, or aging parents, or anyone else to whom you feel any sense of long-term duty? I'm not trying to be snarky, just to assess where you're coming from.

mcphilip• 12 years ago

I don't think it's possible to evaluate the mindset of the individual attempting the rescue from the side line. All rational thought may have fled his mind and he was acting on pure impulse.

The only reason I speculate that might be the case was when I was held at gunpoint (long story), my mind immediately switched to a "detached observer" point of view. No fear or heroism, just observation of events.

noonespecial• 12 years ago

The man he tried to rescue had a family too. Sometimes you double down when you think the odds are in your favor. It's sad that turned out not to be the case this time.

silvertonia• 12 years ago

Or it was the case, it was the perfectly right thing to do, and he just got unlucky.

learningram• 12 years ago

Reminds me of the kid in China that was run over by two trucks and no one cared

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue

rdl4• 12 years ago

A huge loss -- he sounds like he was a great person, and dying in an attempt to save a stranger's life is testimony to that.

throwwit• 12 years ago

RIP

betawolf33• 12 years ago

Talk about a daring public outreach initiative.

zaroth3• 12 years ago

Terrible tragedy for this man's family and friends.

I wonder if I ever find myself on the platform hearing screams for help coming from down in the tracks... is it reasonable advice to just scream back at the person to lie down between the tracks -- what's the clearance?

Apparently sometimes enough, but not always, says Gawker/Reddit. [1] The 'best advice' is run like hell to the far end of the platform, and there should be a ladder there.

[1] http://gawker.com/5965694/what-to-do-if-you-fall-onto-the-su...

hueving2• 12 years ago

With Caltrain, you just step off the other side of the tracks so you're standing between the two sets of tracks. The only reason people are killed is either because they intended to be killed or because they are incapacitated.

hackinthebochs• 12 years ago

From what I've read, they usually build a gap under the platform--enough clearance to hide under if you get stuck down there.

kposehn6• 12 years ago

Something that I realized is overlooked in this thread is the other-other victim: the Caltrain engineer.

Railroad crews that hit people and/or vehicles can get extremely bad PTSD and it can have a massive impact on them. My best wishes go to the crewmember who is likely dealing with a very trying time.

Crito• 12 years ago

I read somewhere once that the suggested procedure for train engineers who are about to hit somebody is to sound the horn and activate the brakes, then cover their ears, close their eyes, and scream so that they do not hear the noise.

I'm not sure if that is true, but it really ingrained in me a sense of how horrible it must be to be so powerless in that sort of situation.

shangxiao2• 12 years ago

Even if it isn't the procedure, it sounds like great advice

venus• 12 years ago

An ex of mine's uncle worked for 40 years as a track engineer for a railway company in Tokyo. There, the trains cannot be stopped for any longer than absolutely necessary, and the engineers were/are frequently called out to inspect and help clean up the track, with a claw-type pick-up tool and a bucket. Hit at 100kph and go under the wheels - it can be very messy. And I'm not talking once or twice here, it happened several times a year.

It's possibly even worse being the driver, but it always struck me what an utterly horrific job that must be and wondering what stress-related illnesses it would produce in the affected employees.

edit: I should clarify that any large body parts are collected by the police or medical personnel. The engineer's job is to certify the integrity of the track and clear it of foreign matter, washing it down too if necessary.

sspiff• 12 years ago

The uncle of my girlfriend is a train driver (not in Japan, but in Belgium), and he's had several of these incidents happen during his career. Here, walking under a train is one of the more popular methods of committing suicide.

It's a very tough situation, because trains don't stop on demand. Last week, a friend-of-a-friend killed himself by walking into a slow-driving train. Imagine being the driver of a train with a 20-year-old kid walking towards your cabin and being unable to stop the train in time.

Theodores• 12 years ago

Also overlooked is the guy we assume to have been trying to commit suicide. He is still a fellow human being, but what possible words do we have for him? Seemingly none on this thread.

Things might be bad for the Caltrain engineer, but he still has his job. However, for Mr Failed Suicide, he has the following to look forward to: the problems that existed before the attempt, those will not have gone away. The physical agony of injury due to being hit by a train. A hospital bill. The fact that he is not going to be Mr Popular for indirectly causing someone else to die. Hence, with hindsight, his original depression will look like happy times.

In London (and probably every major city) commuters are regularly affected by those trying to commit suicide by being hit by a train. Recently we had one woman on the tracks first thing in the morning. She did get hit, but not fatally. This required a suspension of service. Eventually the authorities caught her and, after being admitted to 'A+E' (Accident and Emergency), they took her to the mental health ward. After lunch she was able to discharge herself and make it down to the train station where she was able to do the deed just in time for rush hour.

Because the trains ended up out of sequence due to her morning capers and because the tracks had to be handed over to the police for them to do their work for afternoon/evening, it meant that she had managed to effectively close the track for the entire day. You can imagine how best pleased the tens of thousands of commuters on that line were.

I would not be the least bit surprised if the guy that tried to suicide himself in this story tries to kill himself as soon as he is able to, as per aforementioned London lady. There is a big difference between 'cry for help' suicide attempts and being on the tracks. There is also a difference between someone standing on a tall building preparing to jump and someone on the tracks. Effectively, with that train coming along it is equivalent to the jumper being in freefall, the point of no return has been passed. I don't think that our hero in this story had time to realise that.

easy_rider• 12 years ago

Even after his death, awesome marketeer.

vladtaltos• 12 years ago

Rip

Sami_Lehtinen• 12 years ago

Things can be done very differently. Here's how they deal with trains in one place. https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wlm0BNKpJeA/UuOjk8UOduI/A... Seems to be working well.

HarryHirsch• 12 years ago

No one has compared "man-on-the-tracks" to confined space rescue yet. Before you attempt it you must protect yourself or you risk creating more victims or fatalities.

Chemists know all about it because of the risk of poisonous gas. If I saw someone collapsed in front of their fume hood not knowing what was going on I wouldn't even try to pull the fellow out without breathing gear, even if it was a friend or colleague. This is left to trained personnel, that is the fire brigade.

There was this incident about twenty years ago at my old university where they dispensed liquid nitrogen in a basement that had no oxygen sensor (!). The ventilation had failed, and a student who came to fill up his dewar fell unconcious for lack of oxygen and couldn't turn off the tap. A second student tried to pull him out and became unconscious as well. It took number three to pull out numbers 1 and 2. Result: one dead, one disabled.

There is bravery, and there is insane heroics. Pulling a fellow bent on suicide off a train track is the second kind. It takes discipline not to do it.

Nvidia marketing manager killed during train rescue attempt

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