Recruiters only know bad developers

by liamgooding • 13 years ago

6 13 13 years ago

grumps• 13 years ago

I stopped reading after `I Hate Word Docs`

If you have any plans to apply to any job besides your open position, they need to be in a word document for all of the shitty ATS. Don't be that guy who makes someone take an extra step just to apply to your open positions. I don't disagree with the premise at all, I'd rather send PDF docs over word but the geniuses in HRT decided against that.

msie• 13 years ago

First of all, if a developer is applying for a job with me and he sends me a Word Doc CV, I’m going to delete his email. Why? Because a word doc is an editable format. But I don’t need to edit his CV. If you really need to send a traditional CV, make it a PDF. It’s basic IT competence.

He sounds like a horribly picky (for no good reason) boss to work for. Only Rockstars need apply.

ChristianMarks• 13 years ago

If he can't edit a pdf with a binary editor, or log into a dial-up connection by screeching into his telephone (no modem) then no true hacker will work for him. Other than that, he has a point.

liamgooding5• 13 years ago

Exactly my point... I ONLY want those people who are willing to take an extra step :-)

mkautzm• 13 years ago

'I'm going to delete an email because it has a CV in an editable format it in'

'Ask me to telnet into your CV or solve an algorithm that prints your CV...'

If everyone had the ability to read minds and know how a given employer wants to see their resume/CV, then a 'standard format' wouldn't be necessary. But because the powers of long-range telepathy have evaded us so far, we end up agreeing as a society that certain formats are acceptable. It's not that we personally like them, but it's 'safe'. It's considered normal and there is kind of an unspoken agreement between everyone that a .doc or .docx file is acceptable.

If you ask 99% of employers to telnet into your CV, they are probably going to tell you to kindly fuck off, and so you don't.

'They’re going to complain about overtime'

The idea that you don't want to hire people who are motivated strictly by a paycheck is fine, but this attitude right here breeds the shitty culture in software development we have today, where 60, 70, 80+ work weeks are considered normal and 'if you don't like it, leave'. It's poisonous to an entire industry. People have lives -- I like to volunteer at my local zoo and write music in my free time. If I had a job that just expected dozens of overtime hours every week because 'reasons', then I'm not taking it.

In the real world, people do want jobs. People do want jobs they love, and they are willing to give up a lot for jobs they love, and you might be providing them with one, but you need to come down to earth and realize that this isn't the only job they will ever apply for and expecting to be super impressed by the way they apply for the job is unrealistic, unfair, and I dare say, 'out of touch'. These people also have lives outside of work. Hobbies, family, friends and such take time and if you are hiring people that are willing to give up all of that in the name of work, I'd be really concerned for them.

liamgooding5• 13 years ago

First mkautzm , thanks for the comments on this. Honestly, I'm glad to see debate as it allows me to really challenge how I feel about this beyond a short blog post. Just want to feedback on a few points:

It's considered normal and there is kind of an unspoken agreement between everyone that a .doc or .docx file is acceptable.

I disagree. Maybe in a corporate world, applying for the paper distribution business in town or the IT support department at the accountancy firm up the road. But in the startup community, don't hackers all kinda share a sense of "innovation"?

If you ask 99% of employers to telnet into your CV, they are probably going to tell you to kindly fuck off, and so you don't.

Wouldn't you want to work for that 1% who didn't?

'They’re going to complain about overtime'

Don't quote out of context. There's an unlimited vacation policy at Trak.io.... take all the time out you want and need. But yeah, when the AMS MongoDB goes down and Digital Ocean aren;t allowing new droplet provisioning in AMS, I expect all hands on deck while we spin up on AWS. Because we all care about the product, our customers uptime, their data

In the real world, people do want jobs. People do want jobs they love, and they are willing to give up a lot for jobs they love, and you might be providing them with one, but you need to come down to earth and realize that this isn't the only job they will ever apply for and expecting to be super impressed by the way they apply for the job is unrealistic, unfair, and I dare say, 'out of touch'. These people also have lives outside of work. Hobbies, family, friends and such take time and if you are hiring people that are willing to give up all of that in the name of work, I'd be really concerned for them.

What can I say.... I've learnt that when you're building an early team, you need a small team of amazing people because the overhead of a few OK people doesn;t even come close to the output of one amazing, passionate person.

I'd happily piss off 99 applicants to find no.100 who's amazing and who actually put at least the same amount of time putting an application together as I'll spend researching him/her online :-)

VonGallifrey• 13 years ago

I have worked with recruiters before and just wanted to say a few things about this:

1. The Word Doc is not the fault of the Developer.

Every time I send my CV out it is a PDF, but Recruiters usually ask me to send them a Doc instead. "How can I hire a developer who can’t even understand file formats?" This is a wrong conclusion I think, the Developer probably knows that a PDF would be better, but he has no choice if he wants to work with the recruiter.

2. how relevant is a traditional CV

I don't know how relevant a traditional CV is, but I know that there are great developers that simply can not pump everything they do onto GitHub because the type of Contract they have with their employers. This means that a CV would be the only way to show what they have done in those years without breaking their Contracts. Or do you think that someone that can do a little Play project on GitHub really does not even have to show what else he did?

3. "desperate, so driven by money"

Every time I work with a recruiter it works like this: The recruiter contacts me and tells me about a company that would be interested in working with me and I send him my CV. The reason I send him my CV is because it is no work at all and I want to find out if it is a interesting company. This doesn't mean that I am desperate and so far money didn't even come up once. And also I have not "gone to" a suit-and-tie recruiter the suit-and-tie recruiter came to me.

liamgooding5• 13 years ago

Hey VonGallifrey, also thanks for giving this some decent feedback. While it's mostly criticism, been challenged like this is extremely valuable as it helps me address my own preconceptions and assumptions about the recruitment game!

The recruiter contacts me and tells me about a company that would be interested in working with me

In over 1,000 recruiter emails I've received over the last few years (of which at least 500 have been in the last few months due to Trak.io spiking in awareness) not once have I ever, ever expressed an interest first. Which means the Word Doc's getting dumped in my inbox are from people who haven't had your experience at all.

So the recruiters who are coming to you (kudos BTW), probably spinning you different shit as they send to employers but equally just as BS.

Think about it - a recruiter earns a commission on your base salary. Not options. Not employment perks. Not company culture. Not product vision. Which opportunities do you think they're going to put in front of you??

Their only job is literally to get the highest salary possible for the developer. They hope you'll pull that salary for 3 months, so that their manager will unlock their full commission.

This means that a CV would be the only way to show what they have done in those years without breaking their Contracts.

I totally get your point about NDA work, and perhaps finding no time for any out-of-work-projects, but I fail to accept that truly interesting people have NOTHING outside of their job to talk about.

Or maybe there are some people... not seen enough people to truly call definitive judgement on this yet.

A word doc feels so "copy-paste". A personal intro email with a few relevant points, with a follow up Skype call, is going to tell me so much more. Receiving a "pump and dump" CV through a recruiter leaves absolutely no room for this. And I want people who KNOW this.

I want people who know full well that having that first impression of a "pump and dump" kinda developer is not how they want to be perceived.

So I guess my point shouldn't be specifically that they need a Github profile full of fun projects instead of a CV, more that I don't want to get a CV of them via a recruiter as it sending all the wrong signals.

Recruiters only know bad developers

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