Prostitution in Germany: Has liberalisation gone too far?

http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21589922-has-liberalisation-oldest-profession-gone-too-far-giant-teutonic-brothel

by DanBC • 13 years ago

28 46 13 years ago

lenni• 13 years ago

I live in Germany and it is by no means a "giant brothel". Yes, there are large ones scattered around motorway exits and industrial parks. To me, them being tacky capitalist sex shopping centres is preferable to being underground, dingy and dangerous.

Trafficking and exploitation is definitely a problem but I'm not sure if the law change from 2001 has made matters worse or better.

flexie• 13 years ago

But it is so typical for the Economist to make far fetched claims. In my view it is one of the most overrated magazines. Their use of statistics or their pseudo objective way of juxtaposing views doesn't hide that essentially their articles are just a collection of anonymous opinion pieces.

adnam• 13 years ago

Let's not forget that the Economist has the privilege of sending journalists to Bilderberg meetings (a secretive lobby attended yearly by heads of industry and government) then not reporting on proceedings.

gonvaled• 13 years ago

I used to read the Economist, and I was very much under the impression that they were champions of objectivity, and that they provided a very critical and unique point of view. Nothing further from the truth: they also have an agenda, so they shoehorn the facts to their conclusions. Exactly as everybody else is doing (maybe not so cleverly). I stopped reading it when I could pretty well predict what they would say about a certain topic. And currently their "I told you so" attitude disgusts me profoundly.

berntb• 13 years ago

The ending was a bit fun for a Swede:

> But whereas progressive Swedes view their state as able to set positive goals, Germans (the Greens, especially) mistrust the state on questions of personal morality as a hypocritical and authoritarian threat to self-expression. Only this can explain why Swedes continue overwhelmingly to support their policy, and Germans theirs.

Sweden is consensus driven. Only one opinion is allowed at a time in many subjects. No media(/political party) is arguing the German solution in Sweden, it would just be impossible.

Me? I have an unusual attitude in Sweden. I ask: What works best? Frankly, I don't know. The Swedish way sounds nicer, but... does it really work?

(I don't really trust Swedish research on this, a large part of that will come with an agenda.)

Some other Swede will comment and claim I'm totally misrepresenting everything about just one opinion at a time.

Then I will point out e.g. that in Sweden housing just isn't being built, because it would lose votes (and probably lobbying from the big building companies that like the present situation). This at the same time as the population is increasing quickly. This is insane -- but the media isn't screaming at the politicians anyway. Another thing not discussed [immigration].

(There, I saved HN from a few more stupid comments.)

What I would really want to see is trafficking statistics for Sweden and Germany. This is a modern slave trade that destroy people's lives by torturing them for money. Worse than heroin.

Edit: "k__", read the article. It isn't outlawed to sell sex in .se, it is outlawed to buy it. That is a difference compared to drugs. The effects of this is uncertain.

k__• 13 years ago

Outlawing prostitution will end in the same shit like the war on drugs in the USA.

The politicians see the problems and try to erase them instead of thinking about the causes.

The problem isn't people having sex for money or people giving money for sex. The problem are those who force other ones to do their bidding.

dsco• 13 years ago

I think that your statement about Sweden being consensus driven is spot on. Whether it be issues on drugs, sex or religion we tend to pretty much have a consolidated view on things - and contrasting opinions are considered extreme. Imagine living in the bible belt, but replace the bible with politically correctness and you have Sweden in a nutshell.

oskarth• 13 years ago

For what it counts, I am also from Sweden and I completely agree with you (not that I have a choice not to...).

makomk2• 13 years ago

Sweden's handling of sex workers gets a lot less scrutiny than it really ought to. In particular, while it's technically true that they don't criminalise the actual prostitutes (unless they're migrants who aren't legally allowed to work in the country), Sweden criminalizes everyone around them. For instance, there's an explicit provision requring landlords to evict any tenants whom they have reason to believe are having sex for money in the leased property and making it a criminal offense for them not to do so.

DanBC3• 13 years ago

The UK has had some changes to its prostitution laws.

It's legal for two people to exchange sex for money.

But then there are some added technicalities: two or more women cannot share a property to use for sex work (because that becomes a brothel); people cannot control sex workers (pimping is illegal); it's illegal to pay a trafficked worker for sex; etc etc.

These have been added over the years, and so we have a confusing situation. People don't really know what is or isn't legal.

With this kind of stuff law should be clear because it's mostly about telling society what is acceptable. That guides people into making less unacceptable choices. (EG: Curb crawling: "Pay women to have sex is okay; but don't approach women on the street in your car and ask if they're prostitutes". That law should be about guiding people to use advertised prostitutes, but it's used to clamp down on all prostitution.)

patrickaljord5• 13 years ago

Me? I have an unusual attitude in Sweden. I ask: What works best? Frankly, I don't know. The Swedish way sounds nicer, but... does it really work?

How is it nicer? Do you think it's ok for the State to decide what two consenting adults can do with their own bodies?

alkonaut7• 13 years ago

Positive and negative freedoms. The right of a subset of the population (Non-consenting sex workers, i.e. traficking victims etc.) to NOT have to sell sex against their will, is stronger than the right for the larger group to be allowed to do so.

Just like my right to walk the street without being shot outweighs anyone elses right to carry a gun there.

hwh• 13 years ago

I think it can safely be stated that the law changes makes life easier for "regular" prostitution, i.e. prostitution going by the law. It doesn't criminalize anymore, it doesn't exclude. It's not just about welfare, like the article seems to mockingly assert at a point, it is about social security, medicare, ...

As for whether it leads to more prostitution overall, that is not scientifically established.

Admittedly, there is a sector of prostitution, where that law didn't change a thing. That's where the actual crimes happen.

Nobody created the liberalization laws with the intent to lower prostitution rate overall.

The situation before was a bit more aweful than with the (liberal) law. Prostitution was legal, but only doing it. When it came to legally enforce payment, sex workers didn't have much in their hand. That arguably supported pimping and bringing the "sex business" into shady regions.

revelation• 13 years ago

The drug wars already tell us you can't get rid of some perceived evil by outlawing it when theres a huge intrinsic demand. Outlaw the buyers, the sellers, the importers.. it has all been tried a billion times, and all attempts have failed.

The problem with the laws in Germany is that liberal laws can't change society. If prostitution is this shady thing where only drug addicts work.. well then no matter the laws, the development of a proper industry is harmed. It will take at least another generation to get rid of the old mindset.

homakov3• 13 years ago

The drug wars already tell us you can't get rid of some perceived evil

define "evil"

DanBC3• 13 years ago

define "evil"

Whatever the law makers define as undesirable for society.

Notice parent comment uses "perceived" evil.

Law makers perceive drugs as harmful for the users and society, they perceive drugs as evil. The accuracy of their perceptions are not discussed in parent comment.

chongli• 13 years ago

If prostitution is this shady thing where only drug addicts work..

Legalise drugs as well. Drug addicts need help, whether they are prostitutes or not. If we can help these women clean up, they may choose to leave prostitution and do something else.

makomk2• 13 years ago

Hah. I like how they describe their figure of "400,000 prostitutes catering to 1m men a day" as the "best guess". What they really mean is that - as usually happens with this issue - some politician or activist group (probably either right-wingers or a feminist group that wants to impose the Swedish model on Germany) has made up a number out of whole cloth. Every time you see a statistic like this, always try and find the actual factual basis for it - good luck though because it won't exist!

raphman• 13 years ago

This '400,000 prostitutes' figure seems to have originated from Hydra e.V., a prostitutes association [1]. It is at least three years old and seems to include part-time prostitutes as well. Generally, it seems to be an upper bound.

[1] http://www.bmfsfj.de/BMFSFJ/root,did=132012.html (German)

Udo7• 13 years ago

I'm German and I feel this article fails to grasp the atmosphere around here. The country is certainly not one giant brothel. Growing up here, brothels have the same aura as sex shops, sex kinos, and whatever other sex industry places exist. In fact, many times they're joints offering multiple services. Yes, they can be seedy (especially in "big" cities around the train station area), but if you look hard enough you can find them in pretty much every larger town. They're by the road side, or even as is the case in my home town, smack in the middle of the shopping district. It's not like there are prostitutes standing around everywhere, for the most part they are just large hotel-like buildings that look a bit like clubs.

In fact, from outside presentation, it's easy in some cases to mistake a bordello for a girlie bar, a private nudist club, a massage parlor, a swinger club, or whatever. When I was working on our startup, we were selling some of our old displays once and a middle aged business woman came in to buy them. We got talking and she told us she was running a brothel. Being a business ourselves, we quickly exchanged stories and experiences that sounded very similar (we were a software startup that had nothing to do with sex). The gist of it was for me, that looking into this somewhat alien world, these brothels are just normal small businesses. I'm sure there are brutal mafia-owned exploitation joints in this country, but the average urban brothel seems to be more like a mom and pop shop. The article claims that only 44 sex workers took advantage of social benefits, but that simply cannot be the whole story. This brothel owner I talked with told me that while the girls register with other occupation names officially, every single one of them was getting a normal wage, with taxes and everything.

From where I'm standing, the fact that it's not illegal helps a lot of people with no discernible downside.

Are there appalling slave labor shops based on human trafficking? I'm sure they exist, but they are illegal. I'm also sure those do not make up the vast majority of brothels in Germany. As for the rest, it's difficult to make a convincing argument that the country would be a better place for anyone if they would be driven underground.

Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway.

pantalaimon3• 13 years ago

Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway.

Why would you think so? The number of older people is just growing.

Udo7• 13 years ago

You might be right. But the way I meant it was only incidentally about age itself. I think my generation and below (btw I'm also middle aged now) are less likely to engage the services of a prostitute, but that's mostly based on my immediate social circle and I don't have the data to back this up. Personally, the concept always seemed very strange to me, and I can't imagine that'll change as I get older.

DanBC3• 13 years ago

From where I'm standing, the fact that it's not illegal helps a lot of people with no discernible downside.

I'm generally if favour of legalising prostitution. People with free will exchanging money for sex is fine. And having legal prostitution should allow better regulation - children and trafficked workers get better protection; legal sex workers get better health care.

But those things that make legal prostitution more acceptable make it more expensive, which is the gap filled by criminal gangs exploiting trafficked workers.

Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway.

Everybody gets old. Online dating shows there are many lonely people.

I'm gently surprised there's nothing exploiting the gap between "rent a friend" and "sex work" for "rent someone to give you fully clothed, non-sexual, hugging and conversation".

Udo7• 13 years ago

I'm gently surprised there's nothing exploiting the gap between "rent a friend" and "sex work" for "rent someone to give you fully clothed, non-sexual, hugging and conversation".

True. I have always been surprised that there are no actual (for lack of a better word) escort services here: places where you rent someone to go out with, or to attend social functions with. If this existed, I must confess I'd have used it several times already. There are social events where showing up alone is simply not a good option.

alkonaut7• 13 years ago

it's easy in some cases to mistake a bordello for a [...], a private nudist club,[...], a swinger club, or whatever.

And you mean in Germany seeing a private nudist club or a swinger club in the street wouldndn't be surprising, or immediately tag the area as seedy?

Udo7• 13 years ago

It can tag an area as seedy, but not necessarily so. Like I said, they're mostly normal-looking clubs. There are many private clubs in Germany that exist somewhere on the edge between different concepts, and they're not necessarily seedy or easily distinguishable. Remember, this is the country of the swinger club or the BDSM show or even the socially very acceptable Burlesque/variety show.

wuschel2• 13 years ago

Nice post, however, I would not agree to this statement:

"Anecdotally I do get the feeling that prostitutes as a profession are mainly serving an older generation though, so I'm not sure if they remain economically viable anyway."

Prostitution is tied to the nature of the sexuality of men - which is likely not going to change in the next time. There is a strong demand for uncomplicated, quick, cheap sexual satisfaction within the male population, and prostitutes cater to this demand. The image of the 60 year old unemployed client is wrong.

There was a nice article in the last FAS (Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung 17.11.2013, a leading German newspaper) that reported on a biased podium discussion of a well known stone age feminist. I found the article to be nice because it discussed the needs of prostitutes e.g. respect of the customer, hygienic business practices, safe environment, etc.

Udo7• 13 years ago

Like I said, you are probably right that my perception in this regard is not representative of German society as a whole. However, I consider myself to be male, and I have to object to a blanket statement like

Prostitution is tied to the nature of the sexuality of men

It's obviously not tied to my nature nor the nature of most men in my social circle. Are we not real men, then? I get that the intent here was probably to express how prostitution is fueled by male desire, but I don't agree with the implication that this is how all men feel.

rustynails• 13 years ago

If you read the comments at the guardian, there are many well reasoned arguments. Some points include - parallels to war on drugs (a failure) - separating forced vs voluntary workers - ability to report crimes where it's legal - provides an opportunity/income for some to better themselves

One of my ex girlfriends became a prostitute. It's one example only. She loved (and supposedly still loves) sex. She was never for long term commitment. She is financially doing well. She featured in a documentary on the industry, and she provides counseling for abused women.

Very insightful posters. Glad to see common sense prevail, rather than the usual gender war (emotive) arguments.

Thanks for the link.

homakov3• 13 years ago

One giant brothel. Isn't it awesome? What's wrong with you guys!

dalore• 13 years ago

Has the liberalisation of the oldest profession gone too far?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines

Prostitution in Germany: Has liberalisation gone too far?

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