Young and Educated in Europe, but Desperate for Jobs

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/world/europe/youth-unemployement-in-europe.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimesworld&_r=0

by danso • 13 years ago

44 60 13 years ago

nytimes.com

lukasm2• 13 years ago

I like how the title indicates that educated = job. Correlation Does Not Imply Causation

lsc3• 13 years ago

From one perspective, the title seems to be juxtaposing "educated" and "jobless" to say that these folks worked hard and got an education, and still are jobless. This angle works on several levels; you know, the 'protestant work ethic' would say these are good people because they worked hard to get through college. From a capitalist perspective, well, traditionally you go to college with the expectation that you will be able to get a white-collar job afterwards, and if that is no longer true, well, it's big, important news.

From another perspective, the title says you should care about these folks because they are educated, middle-class kids, just like you or your kids. The idea here is that your average upper-middle class person probably doesn't have as much sympathy for the unemployed people in the lower classes. But if you frame the situation as general downward social mobility for the middle classes, it looks a lot more alarming (I mean, to other middle-class people)

lukasm2• 13 years ago

True that, but my point is, it's really bad that journalist are trying preserve a false assumption that college is a proxy to a white-collar job. Kids are constantly hearing that they have to do good in school so later on they will be rewarded. That's intuitive, but not true. I managed to change my thinking on 3rd year. I stopped optimizing for high grade if there is no value. It's hard if you hear for 20 years the opposite.

morgante3• 13 years ago

I wonder what's the situation like for software developers and engineers? Equally dire, or would learning to program be a way out for them?

antonius• 13 years ago

" ...or would learning to program be a way out for them."

In my opinion, not everyone is able to code. Not because it's some sort of exclusive club but because being a programmer involves thinking differently in order to find some sort of solution.

morgante3• 13 years ago

In my opinion, not everyone is able to code. Not because it's some sort of exclusive club but because being a programmer involves thinking differently to solve problems.

Generally, I agree (having seen people who really can't do it continuously struggle through coding exercises). That being said, I'd be interested in hearing if people even try. Surely some could manage it.

bronbron• 13 years ago

Programming's not a panacea for everyone's problems, you know?

I mean, I get that you're just coming from a place of decency and trying to help, but suppose tomorrow every unemployed person decides to become a programmer - does that really help? Or does it just make the market for programmers worse?

I get that you're trying to help, but there are systemic problems to be resolved here.

morgante3• 13 years ago

Programming's not a panacea for everyone's problems, you know?

Yes, I do. Obviously (and, from a selfish perspective, thankfully) not everyone is inclined or able to learn programming.

I'm more interested in how counter-cyclical programming is. Does it allow you to weather a tough labor market, or are young developers seeing similar difficulties in Europe?

jpelker5• 13 years ago

Learning to program is always an option for anyone with an internet connection. It beats spending six years and $100,000 on a sociology Masters and then stocking shelves like the women in the article.

Speaking of which, these characters kinda deserve their fates by choosing such pointless career paths. Hopefully others will learn from their mistakes.

lispylol• 13 years ago

Many "dev bootcamps" have been cropping up in the U.S. I wonder if that is / will be a trend in Europe?

also, hope you're doing well Morgante :) - fellow '13

collyw2• 13 years ago

There are programming jobs for those that are decent. But I have noticed the wages have dropped a lot over the last ten years. Nothing like the amounts for jobs in the States.

Yuuyake5• 13 years ago

There's plenty of IT jobs (software/system engineering, admin work etc.) but you have to know something. I interviewed people for intern and junior programmer positions (mainly Java devs) and they had no idea what an interface is or why we would use it. Ha! They had no idea about basic CS concepts, how the computer works etc. Yet they wanted to work at a place with one of the highest wages in the area. Well...

bowlofpetunias5• 13 years ago

They would be in the same situation, only earning much more money and be able to afford to fly back home every other weekend.

There's such a shortage here in Amsterdam that companies are hiring non-EU citizens (with all the visa crap that comes with it). There's lots of Southern European engineers here, but a lot more sitting back home whining about how bad things are.

This is why I don't feel awfully sorry for our young Southern friends. There's well-paid work a cheap two and a half hour flight away. No visas, no work permits and getting paid in familiar currency. Hell, the IRS will even throw in a 30% tax rebate for your troubles.

ajuc2• 13 years ago

I don't know about Spain, but in Poland programming pays OK, and if you know anything you will find a job no problem.

On the other hand you can earn 4 times more in other EU countries for the same job. In my city Java/C# developer with a few years experience earns around 1000 Euro after taxes.

katelynsills• 13 years ago

There's the general rule that the more restrictions you have on how employers can hire, how they can pay, and how they can fire, the less likely they are to hire more people and take risks in hiring. This means being less likely to hire the young, the old, those without a spotless record, and even women who may start families.

I'm not by any means an expert on labor in Europe, but it seems like the obvious way to increase the number of jobs, especially to those who need them most, is to allow employers more flexibility. Instead of artificially creating stratification (some people having no jobs or very temporary jobs, and some having incredibly cushy ones) we would have many more low paying jobs in the middle.

e12e3• 13 years ago

So your solution is more of what's described in the second paragraph:

"it was a rare flicker of opportunity after a series of temporary positions, applications that went nowhere and employers who increasingly demanded that young people work long, unpaid stretches just to be considered for something permanent." ?

gametheoretic3• 13 years ago

You don't do your camp any favors with this category of response.

collyw2• 13 years ago

Perhaps ending the emergency low interest rates we have had for years, and letting economics work the way it should. Let house prices come down, let unviable businesses fail and make room for newer more efficient ones.

jpelker5• 13 years ago

Ah, a proponent of another Great Depression.

jpelker5• 13 years ago

You're being ridiculous.

Employers have stopped hiring excessive numbers of people to sit of their asses because companies can now get get more work for less pay from their young, bright employees, as well as outsource and automate other tasks with software.

Bottom line: today, there are simply too many educated potential laborers to expect jobs to keep up with demand.

microtonal2• 13 years ago

Bottom line: today, there are simply too many educated potential laborers to expect jobs to keep up with demand.

Maybe. It would be interesting to think of the consequences of having a situation where there are systematically more laborers than work.

In theory, this means that everyone can work less, or perhaps not even work at all, while we are still able to produce enough food, etc. to give everybody a reasonable life. In practice we seem to end up in a completely different situation: those who have work are rich, those who don't become very poor.

levosmetalo• 13 years ago

You're being ridiculous.

Do we really need this? I downvoted you after reading this first sentence, although the rest of the comment is quite good.

Most of the times insulting doesn't help you in raising your point.

ENGNR• 13 years ago

I never would have thought myself a socialist, but a basic income (guaranteed payments from government) seems to make so more much sense in this context.

You could scrap the minimum wage, scrap labour laws basically (?), at least from the point of view that if someone was let go they'd still be looked after, so it's more about finding the right fit. If someone gets fired 6 times in a row until they find a job they really do well in then so be it.

Basic income sounds a bit socialist, but it actually lubricates the hell out of a capitalist economy.

bowlofpetunias5• 13 years ago

You missed the part where they are working in Amsterdam?

redwood• 13 years ago

Sad stuff. Somehow I have hope that things will work out: that it won't all be a waste, that people's minds won't just atrophy. That this will be a opportunity to think different, get creative and scrappy, and focus on non-financial pursuits. But who knows. Maybe this really is a societal-level rot that will linger into older age... I sure hope not.

jpelker5• 13 years ago

If these kids (and their parents) begin to not be able to afford to eat or house themselves, they'll likely riot and steal/destroy their countries.

At that point, what will they have to lose?

magnusss• 13 years ago

Why aren't the apparent plethora of young, educated, and motivated workers starting more companies, rather than hoping in vain for existing companies to hire them? Or, asking the question another way, is there something about the legal or financial structure of Southern Europe that makes it harder or riskier to found a business than elsewhere?

dingaling• 13 years ago

1. Lack of market: retail spending is still occasionally dropping month-on- month.

2. Lack of liquidity: what bank, already in perilous condition, is going to lend to these young people?

3. Lack of savings to compensate for ( 2 )

Spanish financial indicators: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/consumer-spending

gametheoretic3• 13 years ago

Reports on gender issues were going to be a tough sell regardless.

carterschonwald• 13 years ago

you have to jump through a lot more hoops to create an incorporated business entity in europe. Much much easier in the US.

jpelker5• 13 years ago

They also don't know how.

I don't remember learning how to run a simple little business for myself in school and I studied International Business.

pjmlp2• 13 years ago

It is an institutional and social problem.

Institutional, because there are endless bureaucracy and taxes you have to fight until the company if finally up and running.

Social, because in many European countries you are only allowed to fail once. Where in US, failure is seen as a mean to learn from the mistakes for the next company, here it is seen as a failure to be an Entrepreneur at all.

eshvk6• 13 years ago

Why are there inherent assumptions in your statement that starting a company is a) what they want to do. (albeit the fact that beggars can't be choosers) b) a high risk activity that is the best choice for them in the situation?

bowlofpetunias5• 13 years ago

What makes you think that isn't happening? It's just not the story the media likes to tell.

The right wing media likes to paint a picture of how bad the "socialist" state an Europe is functioning. The left wing media likes to paint a picture of unemployment and the failure of capitalism.

There's plenty of other things happening. Yes, it's harder in Southern Europe because of both cultural and regulatory issues. But that doesn't mean everyone is just sitting on their asses waiting to get hired.

ajuc2• 13 years ago

It's basically the same in USA (places with jobs and without), but it's the same country, and internal migration is not considered a big deal.

And university is espansive, so people that doesn't expect to gain enough by graduating don't go there. In manu EU countries university education is free.

Yuuyake5• 13 years ago

I don't want to sound like a douche, but... I call bullshit! "[...] master’s degree in sociology" - I really wanted to stop reading after this line. There's a handful of jobs that require only sociological skill and in most cases they don't pay that much. Anyone who doesn't know that should blame only themselves, not the system or the employers. Go google "what can a sociology major do". Even Berkley's (which I find to be a decent school at least) sociology dept's website clearly states that sociology is only an addition to some other skills.

Not sure about other countries but in my homeland sociology studies are piss easy and that's why they are so popular. People just want to have it all with zero effort. To the really small % of people who study it because they truly love it: 1) you either have to be the best at it in that case 2) if you're not, then get a different job. Not everyone can make a living doing what they love the most. I love gaming but I doubt I could ever get to the point where I'd be able to make a living from it.

No jobs for people with a nursing degree, what?? All over Europe there's a shortage of nurses! I'd love to read the whole story of that person. What she tried, what she did, where did she apply etc. It's a hard job, that's why there are shortages, but if you decided to go into a nursing school I'd guess you know that.

No one will hire you only because you have a degree, geez don't people know that? Nowadays everyone can get a degree! Btw. why didn't they mention in the article any university names? Anyway even if you, somehow, graduate from a distinguished uni but did nothing extra, or did not find what you really want to to then again you should only blame yourself.

As a European who did an exchange in France I met many Italians and Spanish during my life. They were usually quite hard working, focused and new what they want from life. And according to them they were the exceptions. Apparently the majority people from those countries recently prefer to party than work hard.

Young people seriously should stop acting like princesses and princes, taking things for granted just because they are special and instead try to do something by themselves.

apsec112• 13 years ago

"Anyone who doesn't know that should blame only themselves, not the system or the employers."

Since these kids were literally wearing diapers, every single authority in their lives has told them: Go to college. Go to college and you will get a good job. Go to college and you will have made it. Go to college and you won't flip burgers. Go to college and you are a success.

"In the 21st century, one of the best anti-poverty programs is a world-class education." - Barack Obama, State of the Union 2010

"Does The College Major Matter? Not Really" - New York Times editorial (http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/29/does-the-colle...)

"Your College Major Is a Minor Issue, Employers Say" - Wall Street Journal Careers (http://blogs.wsj.com/atwork/2013/04/10/your-college-major-is...)

(etc, etc, etc, you can go on forever)

It is the height of audacity to lie to a child, literally every day, for literally twenty years, and then blame them for not being cynical enough to realize it.

Yuuyake5• 13 years ago

People will lie to you, that's how people are. It's your parents'/family's role to guide you. Furthermore, as I took the article it's even the bright and "oh so special" younglings that cannot find a job. If they are so smart they should realise that something is wrong.

If you believe everything you're being told without thinking about it and/or making some research of your own then it's, again, your own fault.

eshvk6• 13 years ago

Somehow my sympathy for a bunch of people living in nice clean nations, free of war, decent health care options, fast free flow of internet etc for suddenly realizing that life is not a bed of roses is not a lot. No one is a fucking child for "literally twenty years". At some point, you need to grow the fuck up and acquire cynicism about how the world works.

Also before it is implied that I am more sympathetic to stupid people in say India or China; I am not. I know enough people there who believe in the group think idea that you can magically turn off your brain, cram and get an education and then get a fucking good job. Those people are stupid. These people are stupid. Stupid people deserve what they get, mediocrity.

thelettere• 13 years ago

If only life were that simple. I've been trying for the last 15 years to find a balance between what is practical and what doesn't make me want to kill myself, and I have yet to find a solution.

My last degree I decided to err on the side of "practical" and got a degree in higher ed counseling - a broad and growing field with tons of opportunity. It was the closest thing to my interests that had practical application. I had some misgivings, but didn't see any other "practical" alternative. So instead of going the sociology-type princess route, I went where the jobs were.

During my internship I hated the job so much I began getting insomnia and a variety of other persistent ailments. After graduating I was so burned out I could barely do anything for 3 months. Now I work as a barista making the same exact money I made prior to starting college 7 years ago.

Sometimes the choice is between something that makes you sick and something that has no "practical" application. Sometimes what you are most passionate about is not what is valued by your culture.

I'd think about that next time I judged someone who decided not to follow the crowd towards a lucrative or middle-class values type of job.

Yuuyake5• 13 years ago

As I said, if you want to do what you love, then go for it. But please don't whine and cry that no one wants to pay you for it if it's a skill that's not highly valued by the industry. As I said in society sometimes you need to clench you teeth and do what has to be done. Then in your spare time you can do what you love.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to live in a world where everyone could do what they truly love but taking into account human nature I highly doubt such an utopia is possible.

eshvk6• 13 years ago

I'd think about that next time I judged someone who decided not to follow the crowd towards a lucrative or middle-class values type of job.

Kind of ironical that you are inherently judging those who hold lucrative jobs as crowd followers or inherently having "middle-class values". One could argue that following the crowd can also be defined as being a poorly paid barista who is doing "art" on the side. There is nothing inherently different from say programming as a day job or working as a barista as a day job and spending your nights doing something creative. Not all who go into this shit are following the crowd or have "middle class" values.

bowlofpetunias5• 13 years ago

This, plus they should count themselves lucky they live in Europe where they are free to move to places like Amsterdam, get a decent job with a decent salary, healthcare, social security, 20+ vacation days and everything. All of that a very affordable flight away from home.

skrebbel• 13 years ago

€1200 in Amsterdam is not a decent salary.

Young and Educated in Europe, but Desperate for Jobs

Related Stories