France Bashing Is So 2012 (Here Is Why)

http://insights.qunb.com/france-bashing-is-so-2012

by cyrillevincey • 13 years ago

47 48 13 years ago

insights.qunb.com

Way to go !

Yoric2• 13 years ago

Oh, also, don't forget that we have a few "minor" companies represented in France, such as Mozilla, Microsoft R&D, Apple R&D, Google R&D, IBM R&D, Intel R&D, etc. all of them involved in some extent in the French startup ecosystem.

For instance, Mozilla (where I work) hosts events with startups, has its own accelerator for startups, and provides some mentorship. Of course, that's for startups that aim for open source, open web, open government, privacy, or any other form of greater good.

flexie• 13 years ago

"Ok, Paris will never compete with San Francisco"

Not so sure about that. Never is a very long word. I bet Paris can compete with San Francisco on tech before San Francisco can compete on charm.

cyrillevincey12• 13 years ago

You are soooo damn right.

rxdazn2• 13 years ago

Plus, French engineers compensations are half US engineers compensations in average.

Hmm... yeah, how is that a good thing? There's also that common thing where startups hire interns and ask for the knowledge of a very specific stack, 10 different skills, bachelor's degree level and offer 600e/month (min. is 436.05e which makes it 2.875e per hour -- if your internship is longer than two months, 0 if shorter) because "oh yeah, you're an intern, you're here to learn. plus we're a start up, we don't have any money".

I love working at startups but sometimes their offers are a fucking joke around here.

I know internships shouldn't be done for the money, I've already done some 436.05e/month ones, don't worry about that.

Yoric2• 13 years ago

As a former startup CTO, I confirm that "we" (== the start-ups) love interns, for all the bad reasons.

They are dirt cheap, they often don't have enough experience to say no when they are handed the crap tasks, and if we decide to hire them, we can offer very low wages, because they often don't take the time to check out the competition. Oh, and they can be blamed for just about anything wrong that happens, too.

Sorry about this, interns, that wasn't my call.

userulluipeste• 13 years ago

I remember my days as intern. So true! It's a dirty game, but it is played dirty (most of the time) by both sides. The (presumably) naïve intern only stays until he wakes up, then having now the luxury of time on his side and the leverage of already being employed, just bids himself to better offers.

cyrillevincey12• 13 years ago

True. But good French startups pay good compensations for good interns. Believe me.

dasil0032• 13 years ago

Good by Silicon Valley standards or good by European standards? Because as a software engineer moving from Minneapolis to Palo Alto to London, I have to say salaries in Europe are a fucking joke (although it's improving).

eloisant• 13 years ago

1. That's only half if you compare with Silicon Valley, not the US average

2. For the employer: there's more taxes to pay than in US, so the cost is not half

3. For the employee: you a lot of "social benefits" like health care, free education for your kids, etc. so a lower salary in France doesn't necessarily mean lower life standard

There is however a problem in French startup is that most of them pay much lower than the average job an engineer can get (i.e. B2B service industry). That's a consequence of not being able to raise as much as in Silicon Valley.

potatolicious• 13 years ago

1. Right, but both the Valley and Paris are tremendously expensive places to be - arguably Paris has more justification for being expensive, being more desirable in non-tech ways. The fair way to look at it is by comparing salary relative to cost of living, and I'm not sure if Paris is competitive even then.

2 + 3. I'm a Canadian, I'm used to social benefits, but Canadian taxes also aren't that much higher than US taxes. In fact, when I was in California the taxes were for all intents and purposes identical to the equivalent income in Canada. From the sounds of other posts, the tax revenue is primarily coming out of personal income taxes, not corporate taxes - which means a lower salary is extra-painful.

I've heard this argument from Canadians, that the 50%-off-engineers situation in Canada compared to the US is somehow a good thing. It's not, there is a tremendous brain drain to the extent that of all the capable devs I've met in school, I only know 3 who remain in Canada.

skrebbel2• 13 years ago

I really like the point this story is making, but I've really not seen much "France Bashing" going around lately. Did I miss anything?

Additionally, the points made seem to apply to a large extent to many European countries. Which is a good thing, of course.

cyrillevincey12• 13 years ago

Thanks. The #pigeons did hurt a lot last year, and after a few months in SF and in Boston I've been amazed how many beliefs foreign observers have about the French startup ecosystem. You're probably right about France (vs) Europe. Would be happy to have some comments from European folks here.

skrebbel2• 13 years ago

Some links about that "pigeons" thing would strenghten your article. I had to google the term to understand what it meant - a national political pressure campaign about taxes that backfired in terms of reputation, am I right?

When reading the article I just skipped that particular point thinking it was some kind of inside joke I didn't get.

One thing I'd like to know about Paris is how non-French-speaking-friendly the startup scene there is. I'm Dutch, my French goes as far as "je m'appelle une baguette". I'm weary of moving to Paris simply because of my experience that the French are, well, less comfortable communicating in English than the inhabitants of some other countries around here, even among the higher educated.

patrickaljord7• 13 years ago

This sounds better than French government propaganda. Don't listen to this guy. France has great food, wine and architecture, I know that, I live here in Paris. But it's a hell hole if you're an entrepreneur, taxes are killing (+60%), investors get most of their money taken away, the State is bordering on insanity, social security doesn't reimburse much anymore and yet you're forced to pay for it+a private insurance and firing people is extremely costly, you can end up paying someone for years even though he's not doing anything anymore. And you can get sued for firing someone and the judge will side by default with the employee, most judges here are communists/far left to begin with or at least socialist if you wish.

Also, here, 99% of people are statists. Every political debates revolve around this: "how can the state fix our problems and pay our bills". Depressing. Recently, many entrepreneurs decided to go on strike and stop paying some of their unfair taxes, Atlas Shrugged is literally happening here, all the richest have left, many entrepreneurs have left, many who stayed are going on strike. You know something is wrong with a country when Ayn Rand's exaggerated prophecies are becoming a reality. Anyway. Just my two cents.

Edit: Dear fellow French. Please argue, don't just downvote and call BS.

p4bl05• 13 years ago

This is bullshit.

e402• 13 years ago

Yeah, the most judges here are communists/far left to begin with was where I got on the train.

cyrillevincey12• 13 years ago

You are confusing personal taxes (up to 60% if you're rich... and stupid) and corporate taxes (which ARE 33%). The rest of your post is just your own - subjective - opinions, but I can tell from what you think that you are NOT running a business in France. By the way, I've fired 4 people in the past 6 months, and I haven't got sued. It's a question of doing it by the rules.

VeejayRampay• 13 years ago

If you're rich... and stupid

Right. Cause God knows paying taxes is stupid. I hate being French when I read non-sense like that, people need to educate themselves on the reality of the French taxation system and what it entails instead of viewing it through the reductive and limited angle of "whaaaa whaaa the state is stealing my hard-earned money".

You'll think about stupid next time you go to a hospital, next time you cough the measly 20 euros up at the doctor, next time you need to send your kid to school or daycare and all that stuff that "stupid people" pay for.

For shame.

xutopia• 13 years ago

I think he's folding in the "charges sociales" that companies have to pay out to the government when they offer a salary. From what I heard they're roughly 50% of the salary cost of each employee. I'm no expert though... could be different.

p4bl05• 13 years ago

You want me to argue?

taxes are killing (+60%)

Taxes are NOT 60% for business, it's 30%. It can go up to a bit less than 60% on personal incomes. That is if your are extremely rich. In 2012, the average taxation was less than 6%. The 45% slice of imposition (which to date is the highest) applies only if you earn more than 500,000€, and only on your incomes above that threshold.

For instance if you earn 1,000,000€ you will pay 458,140.05€ of taxes on incomes, which is a bit less than 46%. To get up to 60% of taxes on incomes, you have to be immensely rich, you won't be suffering from your contribution to society.

the State is bordering on insanity

Your personal (and imho, stupid as fuck, even if I don't particularly like our government) opinion.

social security doesn't reimburse much anymore and yet you're forced to pay for it+a private insurance

This couldn't be more wrong. I don't have a private insurance (nor what we call a "mutuelle" to be clear), I only have the minimum public social security. I went to the hospital twice last month, and both time got a small surgical act in addition to the consultation of a doctor (she's one of the best in her domain, worldwide, fwiw). This cost me 21€ the first time and 7.5€ the second time. Most of the medicine I had to take after that were reimbursed almost entirely. This is not a special case, this is the rule.

firing people is extremely costly, you can end up paying someone for years even though he's not doing anything anymore.

Other people responded to that one. But I may add that if you end up paying people for years after they stop working for you it's either for a non-competition contract or that you fired people without being able to give a reason. Too bad for you, workers are a bit protected in this country.

you can get sued for firing someone and the judge will side by default with the employee, most judges here are communists/far left to begin with or at least socialist if you wish.

Let me laugh a bit I'll come back when I'm done.

Your next paragraph is pure speculations and is plain wrong. No the richest didn't leave. A few cunt like Depardieu left and made a lot of noise about it, but that's all. But if you want to leave, feel free, nobody will stop you.

cyrillevincey12• 13 years ago

100% agree.

patrickaljord7• 13 years ago

Taxes are NOT 60% for business, it's 30%.

Oh come on, you know that when you sum up all taxes and regulations, it costs way more than 30%, it's more like 50% minimum.

It can go up to a bit less than 60% on personal incomes.That is if your are extremely rich

How naive, when you make 2000€, you cost 4000€ to your employer. That means your real salary is 4000 € minus 50% that goes through taxes that your employer pays but really he's passing the costs on you unless you think he's paying you a free meal. So that's 50% already for everyone, then you have to subtract 20 to 30% on the 2000€. So yeah, my 60% is pretty accurate.

Your personal (and imho, stupid as fuck, even if I don't particularly like our government) opinion.

First of all, no need to be so rude. Second, it is being insane. Their answer to everything is more tax even though this is killing the economy. It's clear now that France is governed by a theocracy, a new serfdom where God is Public spending, the clergé is the public workers that pay no taxes and get to retire early with big salaries and lots of privileges and the Tiers état is the people paying for the rest. http://leblogalupus.com/2013/10/09/charles-gave-la-france-es...

a doctor (she's one of the best in her domain, worldwide, fwiw). This cost me 21€ the first time and 7.5€

So one of the best doctors is paid 21€ and 7.5€? Wow, that's less than flipping burgers at your local burger joint. Do you do consulting at this price too? Anyway, this is an anecdotical evidence of yours. It's a fact that Securité social does not reimburse much any more and yet you still have to pay for it and get a private insurance on the side. This is well documented http://www.securite-sociale.info/

it's either for a non-competition contract or that you fired people without being able to give a reason. Too bad for you, workers are a bit protected in this country.

See, this is where we disagree. It is my company, my private property. I should be able to do as I please with it as long as don't mess with other's freedom, this is a constitutional right in the declaration of human rights, private property is sacred. I should be allowed to employ and stop employing whoever I want, whenever I want. This is why there is so much unemployment in France, it's so hard and costly to fire people that we'd rather not employ them. You think you're helping workers but you're not, you're creating more unemployment. Countries like Switzerland that don't have such "protection" have much less unemployment.

A few cunt like Depardieu left

Are you serious? The richest man in France has left and many of the top richest famillies have left: LVMH, Lacoste, Peugeot etc. Not only that but most of our artists and sports men have left. Anyone who creates lots of wealth has left the country. Don't you see a wrong pattern here? How blind can one be. http://www.latribune.fr/vos-finances/impots/fiscalite/201112...

lttlrck• 13 years ago

What's 2012 got to do with anything? It's a national pastime in some corners of the world...

viggity• 13 years ago

$5000 to incorporate in the US? I paid $80. Also, they're talking about how it is "easy" to fire people... if you give them 3 months of notice? Craziness.

France Bashing Is So 2012 (Here Is Why)

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