Roundabouts have turned a corner

http://www.economist.com/news/international/21587244-roundabouts-have-turned-corner-circling-globe?fsrc=scn/tw/te/pe/circlingtheglobe

by deusclovis • 13 years ago

32 44 13 years ago

economist.com

mceoin• 13 years ago

"American authorities say swapping crossroads for roundabouts cuts deaths by 90% and crashes by a third."

beedogs• 13 years ago

Roundabouts are everywhere in Australia and I never understood why I almost never saw them in America.

eropple• 13 years ago

New England has a lot of the old, non-modern roundabout (which this article is talking about but doesn't really distinguish from traditional roundabouts/traffic circles/rotaries).

Boston may have a few that aren't completely Euclidian.

RowanH• 13 years ago

Same in NZ - after living in Canada for nearly 8 years, just returned back to NZ. I love roundabouts... far quicker getting round town, you're not constantly having to do these infuriating 4 way stops everywhere.

pandaman2• 13 years ago

People are not used to roundabouts in America. I lived in place where a whole residential area (i.e. very light traffic, low speed limit, school zones) used roundabouts instead of stop signs. Almost every other time I've seen another car on a roundabout it's been making a left turn by driving clockwise (in America people normally drive on the right side of the road so you need to drive counterclockwise). On a more lively roundabout that was on my way to a freeway I had to be very careful as a significant number of merging cars believed they have a right of way. If there had been a way from my home that did not have a roundabout I'd rather use that because roundabouts were really scary.

mapt• 13 years ago

I've regularly used three roundabouts in my life in the US for different daily commutes, two of which were very busy: I've never seen anyone try to drive clockwise. They do cause confusion for the drivers, who are unlikely to regularly encounter them and are never sure who believes who has right of way, but not clueless to that degree. Right of way on single-lane traffic circles is something people can figure out through driving slow and common sense.

I am not a fan of 2-3 lane roundabout / traffic circles which try to use signal-less operation, because right of way becomes intractable and lane changes difficult.

decadentcactus• 13 years ago

Agreed, they're simple to use, even the 2 lane varieties.

I think the problem is as mentioned, often American ones are much different. It seems more like a free for all circle with a random bunch of roads exiting and entering, with no lanes marked. Also construction obscured the view to the left.

I did come across a few "normal" roundabouts at least, but they either don't exist or are terrible.

OWaz• 13 years ago

In some of the skiing villages in Colorado the intersections were ripped out and roundabouts were added. I heard it was to make the towns seem more European. As a driver I realized it made traffic flow much, much faster. What I do wonder is if roundabouts that service major roads have a lower accident rate than an intersection with traffic lights.

ck2• 13 years ago

Plus I bet it is near impossible to text-while-driving in a roundabout, well at least not and stay alive.

Might make people actually pay attention to their driving if there were more in the USA.

Do other countries have a similar text-while-driving problem?

mappu• 13 years ago

In NZ we had an advertising campaign against it, and then in 2009 it was made illegal to use your phone while driving (excepting "infrequent and brief" GPS use and hands-free calling).

If you're caught there's a small fine, but a comparatively large number of demerit points are applied to your license (after sufficiently many of which your license can be revoked).

masklinn4• 13 years ago

Plus I bet it is near impossible to text-while-driving in a roundabout, well at least not and stay alive.

Depends on the size of the roundabout, on some of them you can more or less go straight through (the bends can be smaller than a chicane).

Do other countries have a similar text-while-driving problem?

Yes. A number of countries have laws against operation of a mobile phone while driving (be it texting or calling).

btbuilder• 13 years ago

I've often suspected that the extensive use of stop signs instead of yields or traffic circles in the US on suburban or low traffic streets and roads is a conspiracy run by the brake pad and oil industries.

cjrp• 13 years ago

That's one of the things I've found frustrating about driving in America. In England, approaching a roundabout with a good open view to your right you can see when there's no approaching traffic and maintain 20-30mph. Whereas in America, despite the fact I could see it was clear, I had to come to a complete stop.

mmanfrin• 13 years ago

  Nevada built America’s first in 1990

I grew up in Orinda, and for as long as I can remember there has been a roundabout in theater square[1].

[1] https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=orinda&data=!1m4!1m3!...

blackjack48• 13 years ago

That appears to be a traffic circle. Entry to roundabouts is controlled entirely by yield signs.

mbell2• 13 years ago

I grew up in New England where there are a fair number of 'roundabouts' (or rotorys as we called them). They were part of my driving test to get my license as a teenager.

My take on them is that they probably do make traffic flow faster, but I was always a bit scared to enter them whilst driving as almost no one seemed to understand the rules. i.e. If you're taking the first exit of the rotary, you should be in the right hand lane, if your not, you should be in the left hand lane. As a result there was a lot of awkward lane changing by people whilst at high turn angles, which was messy, mostly folks in the right hand lane of the rotary going multiple exits and ultimately cutting off someone in the left hand rotary lane on the way to a single lane exit.

lallysingh• 13 years ago

I don't have a link to the article, but I recall reading that having people slow down and be more cautious because of the ambiguity helps safety.

mercer• 13 years ago

Yeah, this has been a big thing in Holland over the years, where they actually remove traffic signs and separation between roads and bike lanes (merging them into one wider street) precisely because it turned out to be safer.

It makes complete sense: when rules are based on other people's behavior rather than mindlessly following rules (that others might not, for various reasons), everyone watches out more.

Edit: to be clear, as a cyclist, roundabouts (and zebra crossings, for that matter) scare the hell out of me precisely because the rules are less explicit, and one dumb driver who doesn't stop for me might cost me my life. But I still prefer a roundabout that results in me being overly cautious, to traffic lights that I and my fellow commuters mindlessly follow where there is still the same risk of a dumb or distracted driver going through red. I'm probably safer off with roundabouts.

sigkill• 13 years ago

It's interesting that you call a roundabout a rotary, they are two different things actually - http://www.cityofbrooklyncenter.org/DocumentCenter/Home/View...

mbell2• 13 years ago

For what it's worth when I took my driving test in ~1999 they were called rotaries but the dynamics and physical layout was more like roundabouts from your pdf. i.e. If properly entered there was no 'weave' area, it's just that there always seemed to be multiple cars in the rotary with no clue causing weaving. Ironically I've been back to that area recently and it's been physically changed and now looks much more like the rotary layout in your pdf.

nostrademons• 13 years ago

The "rotaries" I knew of in Massachusetts were all actually roundabouts in terms of their physical layout and traffic rules governing them.

brador2• 13 years ago

My theory: here we drive on the right. In countries where roundabouts are succesful they drive on the left. The anti-clockwise flow of cars on right side drive might be more difficult for the brain to comprehend, leading to confusion and panic.

dmoo• 13 years ago

I live in Ireland (we drive on the left) lots of roundabouts which work fine. I have driven many times in France (they drive on the right) and their roundabouts work just fine as well. Your brain adjusts pretty quickly.

masklinn4• 13 years ago

My theory: here we drive on the right. In countries where roundabouts are succesful they drive on the left.

France has 30000 roundabouts. Your theory is nonsense.

The anti-clockwise flow of cars on right side drive might be more difficult for the brain to comprehend, leading to confusion and panic.

It's not, it's only difficult for the brain to comprehend when you don't know what roundabouts are and how they work, as with any other somewhat complex road structure.

KVFinn• 13 years ago

New England Rotaries are closer to roundabouts than traffic circles, but not generally considered the same.

"Most common in the New England region of the United States, a rotary is primarily a mid 20th century roadway design defined as a circular, one way, often multi-lane roadway, similar to a traffic circle or a roundabout, but with key differences. They are often found as overpasses or underpasses to highways. Usually traffic already in the rotary has the right-of-way as in a modern roundabout and opposite of a traffic circle, although there are exceptions. The difference in design of a rotary versus a roundabout or a traffic circle, is such that rotaries tend to be quite large and there is little deflection around the central circle (meaning traffic coming on or off does so primarily in a straight line, not a curve). These two factors mean that rotary traffic often travels at speeds in excess of 30 miles per hour, leading to confusion and accidents, and the resulting unpopularity, that the modern roundabout does not suffer from. Although this is a traffic engineering definition, many rotaries are called traffic circles or simply circles, such as the Portsmouth Traffic Circle, in naming."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout

sandGorgon• 13 years ago

These absolutely do not work in Asia - they are pretty common in the Indian subcontinent and SE asia.

However, fundamentally it is a self-regulated mechanism where you need to follow rules like allow merging from left, etc. Traffic signals have more simplistic rules and can be more strictly enforced. The problem happens in heavy traffic when you are literally fighting for your exit - there is no way that you can claim to have been following the rules.

In India, a lot of roundabouts are being converted to traffic signals to save time and safety.

616c3• 13 years ago

Said the same thing about the Middle East. In the Gulf, Indian community is large as well, and they seem to be much more adept at understanding "the rules" than the European and American expats who complain a lot.

masklinn4• 13 years ago

These absolutely do not work in Asia - they are pretty common in the Indian subcontinent and SE asia.

Considering traffic lights don't work either (unless there are a few cops looking for coffee money under the light), that's not exactly surprising.

malandrew• 13 years ago

The other day I actually got to see inside one of those big green boxes on the intersection corners in SF that control the street lights. I was shocked at how much equipment was needed to operate one of those. It's as if there has been no progress in the industry with respect to minimization because it's not a selling point, only price and functionality are.

josh2600• 13 years ago

Yes. It's as if companies don't waste money on R&D when there's no competition.

That's how most of industrial America (and the world) works. Competition breeds innovation, or something like that.

616c3• 13 years ago

Qatar made a lot of controversy here quite recently, as part of the crazy World Cup efforts for the next decade or so. Part of those efforts are removing all those roundabouts why? This article can say what it wants about R/As, but the maintenance improvements are lost as the rest of the traffic grinds to a halt and it severely impacts the local economy with crippling traffic.

People do not respect the flow of traffic here, being the major issue. It is hard to get people to use R/As properly if they do not understand intent. Traffic frequently grinds to a halt as people cut-across, going from the most inner lane out of the roundabout, or circle around in the outer lane and continue to the next exit. It is so common it is the common cause of accidents in the country's capital of Doha. Since the R/A is the nexus of the major chokepoints, an accident causes more severe traffic. The massive traffic is now compounded by the fact they must build intersections inside the center of the R/A, and tear up the road to properly re-align. This never goes smoothly, and the countries traffic has become worse over the last few months as people continue to do this.

So, perhaps the cost is lower, but traffic dynamics are terrible in large cities where the rules are misunderstood, which I assume to be all of them.

AlisdairO• 13 years ago

Roundabouts are extremely common in the UK and work very well - but (a) they are well understood, and (b) my experience is that drivers here are probably more polite than average.

616c3• 13 years ago

And hence my point. Coming from the US, and many expats there are from the UK, the amount of stern criticism leads me to believe driver education will continue to be a problem, and they need intersections and more clearly cut rules (read: radar detectors, with expensive fines, increasingly more common in Qatar) and things will continue along the same course, just faster adoption of cultural standards.

d43594• 13 years ago

Gloucestershire in the UK have a habit of putting traffic lights on roundabouts which as you can imagine completely defeats the point of one. A round about automatically prioritises traffic based on demand. This combination of two contradictory solutions is the work of the devil.

barrkel• 13 years ago

Roundabouts need traffic lights if any exit has a continuous stream of traffic; it starves the entrance immediately before the exit. If there's much traffic entering before a popular exit, it can easily get backed up. I've seen several roundabouts get traffic lights, or get converted back into a traffic light junction, because of this, as traffic patterns changed.

joshuaheard• 13 years ago

Roundabouts rule! I live in France and can drive from here to the store without ever stopping. Single lane roundabouts are common, multi lane roundabouts are more rare. The 5-lane roundabout at the Arc de Triomphe is a white-knuckler.

They work simply: each car entering the roundabout must yield. I've never had a problem.

I have had issues in the roundabouts in Seattle. Partly because they inexplicably put a left turn lane in them. The other reason is most Americans are not familiar with the concept and balk when using them.

mercurial• 13 years ago

The only problem with roundabouts (especially around Paris) is when you have a lot of traffic and half the people forget to blink.

ben0x539• 13 years ago

One-lane roundabouts are fairly common where I live in Germany and I like them just fine, but your ridiculous muti-lane roundabouts confuse the hell out of me! Even on the two-lane roundabout between a place I stayed for a week and the nearest supermarket, I probably pissed off a couple of locals every time. :(

masklinn4• 13 years ago

your ridiculous muti-lane roundabouts confuse the hell out of me!

It's really not difficult, at least when there are only two lanes:

* If you're going to travel for less than half the roundabout (going right), stay on the outer lane

* If you're going to travel for more than half the roundabout (going left), go on the inner lane

* If you're going straight, you can do either (it's mostly a question of traffic, if there's no traffic you can cut through the inner lane)

The second is more risky as not all drivers use their signals, let alone correctly, but normally you give your output direction when entering the roundabout (so use left signals if going left and right when going right), then cut off the signals when on the roundabout and signal right when you're between the exit you want to take and the previous one.

If you fear multi-lane roundabouts or are lost, just stay on the outer lane and do not use your turn signals. People will get slightly annoyed when they gave way and you were turning before them, but nothing more.

jeffblake• 13 years ago

Imagine you are one of the engineers behind traffic lights. That's something to be proud of, you've built something that keeps people safer, can allow emergency vehicles to pass through, are centrally controllable, it can do this this and this, EVERYONE knows about them... "Hey I'm the guy that invented the traffic light!"

BUT now look at the "primitive" roundabout. It wins. Something thats simpler, won't fail, and actually keeps people safer.

This is the dilemma I always fight with myself when I build tech solutions to problems: Does this really make it better? Just because I think its cool, or even that I am proud of it, doesn't mean its good for people to use. For me it always comes down to what is the best. I believe the best in anything is very objective, and that can often lead to very existential questions...

I make software that replaces paper tickets. The battle is always there when someone will say they just want to stick to paper tickets. Sometimes, its hard to disagree with them.

but when a customer pays me money, I start to feel better for awhile. Then the thought is not: 'is this the best solution to this problem'... but rather: 'is this the best thing I am capable of'

blue1• 13 years ago

The article mentions "dutch roundabouts" without explanation. Here is a page describing them:

http://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2013/05/09/a-modern-amster...

mehdim• 13 years ago

France has half of the world roundabouts with close to 30 000 ones (for a total of 36000 cities)

Roundabouts have turned a corner

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