At Last, Facing Down Bullies (and Their Enablers)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/09/health/09klas.html

by robg • 17 years ago

15 59 17 years ago

I'm not sure what this would actually accomplish. I've been seeing articles lately where bullies are just ignored by schools even when repeatedly reported by parents. It seems like universal advice on this topic is unreasonable to begin with. I recall in high school where the school would only get involved when something too big to ignore came up like some kid getting thrown through a window or something (this happened twice). I think the only advice I could give a child going through this is to fight back and fight back hard even if that means more short term pain. I don't think this is necessarily good advice but it might be the only option when the schools ignore these problems as a matter of de facto policy. Of course you could always home school and avoid this problem entirely :)

jnorthrop• 17 years ago

What I've told my kids is if they are being bullied get help from their friends -- not to fight back, but to help remove them from the situation. This is a difficult concept for them to grasp but I've been fortunate that my older son is friends with the bully victim so he's seen how this can work.

What I suggested, and what he has done, is when the bully was picking on his friend to immediately go to his friend and get him out of there. He calls him over from a distance, or tells him he needs his help some where else. This is pre-planned with his friend so it occurs quickly and naturally. And you know what: It worked. The bully moved on to someone he could get a reaction from.

Its hard to tell from the article but it sounds like the model to follow is this kind of approach.

tptacek18• 17 years ago

That approach seems compatible with the article, but if it didn't readily resolve the conflict, the article wants your kids to come to you, for you to go to the principal, and for you to make it clear that the principal --- not the parents --- is expected to decisively and permanently resolve the problem.

The article defines "bullying" as repetitive, implying that whatever your kids are doing to try to address it, the conflict isn't resolving itself.

antdaddy2• 17 years ago

'I think the only advice I could give a child going through this is to fight back and fight back hard even if that means more short term pain'

This is the exact advice I gave my son when he started middle school. I've also seen this advice given to convicts going to prison for the 1st time ;)

biohacker422• 17 years ago

I remember the advice my family gave me before the first day of school. If anyone messes with you beat the hell out of them, if you have to don't hesitate to use a chair, make an example out of them.

Now here's the funny thing: I am not kidding or exaggerating!

Long story short, some kid looked at me wrong, I threw him against the wall and he slid down just like you see in cartoons. That was in first grade and I've never been bullied.

But seriously, don't try this at home kids.

pasbesoin2• 17 years ago

Will you also teach the child how to fight? Many victims have little or no clue how to do this. If you are going to promote a methodology, you should also teach/train it. Otherwise, your advice is empty and frustrating.

I'll add that fighting back need not involve the same aggression expressed in the bullying. (Something else that may need to be / should be learned.) It is a matter of taking control of the situation -- and/or of your role in it -- rather than of becoming equally or more abusive. And there are techniques for that. In any given situation, they will not be full proof. But they may help the potential victim to regain a sense of control; a crucial aspect, I would argue, in resisting the bullying.

tptacek18• 17 years ago

What's the value in teaching children how to respond physically to low-grade physical violence? It's not valuable in adult life. Corner a coworker at your office, shove them, stick a finger too close to their face while raising your voice: you're fired. Is your boss dumb enough to let it go, or worse, participate? Guess what: when employees sue, you lose, no matter what.

Why should my kids waste a moment's time trying to handle violence and physical intimidation on their own? That's teaching them to handle problems with both hands tied behind their back. I want my kids handling problems smart, and "fighting back" and standing up to bullies on their own terms is playing to lose.

There is all sorts of low-grade kids-stuff nonsense that doesn't need to be escalated. But we're not talking about that here. We're talking about kids who are so persistently targeted and oppressed by this juvenile bullshit that they're considering withdrawing from academic programs.

Fuck that shit. If my son tells me he's quitting band because he's getting pushed around over it, I am going fucking ballistic.

(For whatever it's worth, both my kids spend a good chunk of their discretionary time in martial arts. But they're doing that on its own merits, not as a tool to deal with behavior that would be overtly criminal if it occurred between adults.)

run4yourlives13• 17 years ago

What's the value in teaching children how to respond physically to low-grade physical violence?

Like the modern "zero-tolerance" bullshit, you have equated the physical nature of the violence to a level that just isn't warranted in most cases.

Children use violence more readily than adults because they haven't yet learned more sophisticated methods of intimidation and bullying. Of course you wouldn't confront a co-worker, but you'd ostracise them, spread rumours or make sure the boss knows they fucked up that last project.

The act of responding to the threat directly and in kind teaches the victim several qualities that serve them later in life, namely confidence and the ability to act while afraid to assert themselves. People get bullied all the damn time, if for no other reason than they simply don't confront the bully.

It's not valuable in adult life.

I would suggest that it is. There will come a time where your child will be bullied, physically or not, and you will not be around or able to help them. Their ability to believe in their own self-worth and the notion that regardless of the challenges in front of them; whether they are afraid or whether the outcome is certain to cause them pain; they will not subject themselves to being unfairly treated by their peers. They are who they define themselves to be; as important and valuable than any other person.

While I don't believe that physical violence is necessary to learn this, instilling the "fight back" notion into a child is. From my non-scientific observance, parents that are unwilling to let their child fight are usually the same ones that consistently duck from facing challenges head on. There is something to be said for being afraid and acting anyway that many people just fail to grasp.

To think of the number of teens and adults with all sorts of confidence issues, from depression to addiction to being unable to operate without the approval of others - even if it is against their self interest! I can't help but wonder how many of them have never been taught to respect themselves first.

JabavuAdams5• 17 years ago

> What's the value in teaching children how to respond physically to low-grade physical violence? It's not valuable in adult life.

It's very valuable in playground life, though. The value is that they prevent future low-grade violence by engaging in a bit of low-grade violence themselves.

> I want my kids handling problems smart, and "fighting back" and standing up to bullies on their own terms is playing to lose.

Nonsense. It works really well, in my experience. The playground is not like an office, so your extrapolation to adult behaviour doesn't apply. Teenagers are nearly adult physically, but still unformed mentally and ethically/morally.

> Fuck that shit. If my son tells me he's quitting band because he's getting pushed around over it, I am going fucking ballistic.

How's that going to help him? If he knows that you'll react that way, he likely won't even tell you, and the bullying will continue, in secret.

Here's what I'm going to tell my daughter:

1) No one has the right to attack you. If you are attacked, and you can fight back, do it! If the odds are not in your favour, try to flee to a safe area / allies. Don't worry about suspension / expulsion, etc. I will back you up.

Try to keep the violence proportional, unless it's a do or die situation. I.e. shoving vs. shoving, punching vs. punching, don't use improvised weapons unless they do. OTOH err on the side of survival.

2) If anyone ever threatens serious violence, like rape or death threats, tell me. These are not joking matters. It doesn't mean we'll go ape-shit and over-react, but we need to know it's happening in order to figure out whether it's a real threat.

3) If you're being bullied electronically, then tell us, but never ever react to the bully. Don't feed the troll. If the person can't actually reach out and physically hurt you, don't give them anything to work with.

If you teach your kids to never respond to violence with violence, you're setting them up to be bullied, which will affect them throughout their lives. Authority figures can't always (and often won't) save you. Sometimes you need to fight first and ask questions later.

JabavuAdams5• 17 years ago

> What's the value in teaching children how to respond physically to low-grade physical violence? It's not valuable in adult life. Corner a coworker at your office, shove them, stick a finger too close to their face while raising your voice: you're fired. Is your boss dumb enough to let it go, or worse, participate? Guess what: when employees sue, you lose, no matter what.

Remember, we're talking about a response to aggression. In an office, no one is likely to be shoving you in the first place. If someone is, then you are certainly justified in responding physically if you cannot remove yourself from the situation.

You've seen the internet video where an office-worker rages out, hurting others, and everyone just stands around because they've been conditioned to never use violence? They finally react far too late.

philwelch5• 17 years ago

How exactly do you want your kids to respond to bullies?

Any solution that relies upon "implicitly trust authority" is even more flawed, because most bullies in the adult world operate under the color of authority, and while you won't get away with punching a pushy cop in the face, you do need the confidence to tell him to kindly get himself a warrant or leave you the hell alone.

Sometimes, even adults in the real world need to physically defend themselves from criminals. This holds doubly true for women.

dhimes3• 17 years ago

A website about the actual prevention program: http://www.clemson.edu/olweus/

dhimes3• 17 years ago

perhaps better: http://www.olweus.org/public/index.page

As you can see, the program is for sale.

tptacek18• 17 years ago

That doesn't call the original work into question, if that's what you're implying.

TallGuyShort2• 17 years ago

I was bullied a lot when I was little, and when my parents complained to the school, it only got worse because the school handled it very publicly.

As much as I hated it, the bullying turned me into a stronger person, and made me more aware of how I came off to others. I'm now very successful in what I do, and it's partly because I focused on excelling in my field, but also because I focused on improving my social skills. Although being a bully is a sign you have a social problem, being the victim made me aware of my own shortcomings, and I worked to correct them.

tptacek18• 17 years ago

Getting shoved and pushed around by drunk assholes outside your apartment building every evening when you get home from work would probably also teach you to be a stronger person who could keep a level head under physical threat. But that situation, which parallels your school experience, unquestionably involves repeated criminal assault and battery.

The mere fact that it is possible to draw life lessons from bullying does not mitigate it.

TallGuyShort2• 17 years ago

Oh not at all - I didn't mean that it should be left alone. What I mean is that there should be more emphasis on helping the victims grow from and overcome the experience, instead of just trying to prevent it altogether. The author of the article does touch on that, but I think it's generally absent from the minds of most people.

"He's getting bullied at school". "Oh - have you called the school?"

I'm not saying people should be complacent, I'm just saying that helping the victims is probably more important than other solutions. In my case, I always reacted the wrong way to bullying. I think that if I hadn't reacted the way I did, bullying would've stopped.

pasbesoin2• 17 years ago

I experienced a strong case of PTSD and low self-esteem as the result of an extended period of quite pernicious and malicious bullying. In my case, the principal bully -- the leader of a pack who all engaged in the bullying -- was the son of a higher level school official; some of the school staff saw it occurring but took no action, I speculate out of fear of retribution.

For my part, I was also confused and frustrated by the situation. I had no desire to fight the fellow, and I didn't understand where this aggression was coming from. I also literally didn't know how to fight. No one ever taught me even the basics.

The psychological impact was strong enough that I will live with it, to some extent, for the rest of my life.

My recommendations to a parent or mentor would include:

+ Ensure the child is trained in self-defense. I will not allow any child of mine to be without such training. The purpose is not to become aggressive and controlling of others. It is to learn to remain centered and in control of oneself, and hopefully in control of the situation. At least in control of one's reaction to it.

+ Understand that, per my limited reading, bullying is an effective social strategy. Perhaps that may change as society evolves, but it has and does serve the purpose of promoting the bully and gaining them certain rewards. Not that the bullying is necessarily a conscious, pre-meditated decision with such rewards as the known and expected outcome. However, it is not a purely pathological social aberration. As such, it is something that will appear and that will need to be addressed. Saying it is "wrong" and "unfair" does not help the victim in dealing with the situation. Creating a social structure that aids the victim while mediating the bullying does. However (again), the individual cannot count on others always fostering such a social structure. The individual needs to be able to take care of themself. From that standpoint, they may then also be in a position to help foster a social environment that mediates against bullying.

+ Modern society seems to me to have created a bit of a "Lord of the Flies" situation. Many parents' daily lives are so separated from those of their children. Kids spend 8, 10 hours away from their parents in social environments that are strongly weighted towards their peer group, with limited participation by teachers, coaches and such as supervising adults. An entire subculture develops largely independent of broader society. Kids can end up very vulnerable within this. And the culture's message and influence is often to not communicate problems to adults. This reinforces the isolation of the victim.

tptacek18• 17 years ago

You're making the same observation the article is. Parents are by necessity separated from their parents for 8 hours a day. Ergo, it falls upon the school administration to decisively handle this problem, to an extent that is just now beginning to be recognized by academia, medicine, and school boards.

kirse• 17 years ago

I experienced a strong case of PTSD...

Sounds like this guy was full out abusing you rather than just "bullying" you? I got occasionally pushed around in school and dished it out myself, but it was hardly bad enough to cause shell shock and extreme psychological trauma years later.

JabavuAdams5• 17 years ago

Don't dismiss him so lightly. There's a huge difference between infrequent bullying and sustained bullying. As you say, sustained bullying is abuse (in its modern sense), though we often use the words interchangeably.

Imagine that you're in a situation where you're thrown together with people who if they even see you will try to do something nasty to you. Now imagine that happening every day, for years.

I can see how it would change someone.

ixnu• 17 years ago

My son could have been the subject of the article. In 4th grade, he was constantly harassed by a single bully on the bus and in class. Unsurprisingly, all the cliches held: the bully had been in fights with most of the boys on the bus; the school was completely unresponsive to requests for intervention; and the parents of the bully didn't care.

For the first time, I forced my son into an activity - martial arts. After a few months, it gave my son the confidence to stand his ground against his tormentor and fight back. Again, unsurprisingly, my son served his first, and the bully his fifth, suspension for violating the "zero tolerance" for throwing fists in school. It was a great life lesson about fairness. He has not had a problem since.

Most kids, esp boys, will be bullied at some time, but I shuddered at the thought of my son being the constant target every year.

run4yourlives13• 17 years ago

He has not had a problem since.

Key phrase in your comment.

bobochan• 17 years ago

I have pretty awful memories of bullying, fights, etc. from growing up and the tyranny of the schoolyard pack. I had visions of those scenarios when my own kids started public school but I’ve been very impressed with how the school has made creating a good environment a top priority. A couple of things that really impressed me:

1. At the first meeting the principal said that he wanted to know if a kid was having trouble fitting in, making friends. Creating a good environment where kids enjoyed coming to school was obviously a priority at the top of the organization.

2. In addition to all of the classic recess games like kickball and four square, the school put out some chess sets and got toys for the sandbox so that kids had alternatives. There was a playground rule, “can’t say can’t play” that instilled the notion that games were open to everyone.

3. Counselors entered the classrooms early to talk about things like conflict resolution at a level that the kids could understand.

This approach seems light years ahead of what I remember as a kid. In short, I agree that schools can be very effective at eliminating bullying if it is a priority.

At Last, Facing Down Bullies (and Their Enablers)

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