Argh There’s an asshole on my internet

33 60 13 years ago

RHSeeger• 13 years ago

I agree with his thoughts pertaining to, effectively, the fact that people should put some time into being polite even in their negative criticism. Specifically, things like the following could be said in a better way while still conveying the message that the user has issues with the site:

What is this? Sorry, but I’m not going to watch shapes flying around my screen to find out.

However, then he goes on to imply that the things being said are personal attacks, not critiques of the work itself.

If you don’t like my work because it is bad, tell me about it. If you don’t like my work because you don’t like me, talk to the fucking hand.

The messages he quoted, while they could have been phrased better, were not personal attacks. They were comments on things that people found wrong with the product, not the person.

speeder• 13 years ago

This post is the epitome of irony. The guy attack HNers as people for attacking people instead of their work, but post as example critiques of work.

It is like the bible phrase about judging while still having a post on your eyes.

DjangoReinhardt17• 13 years ago

That guy is me, the OP.

The post was written as a single-draft rant and published in a hurry. In retrospect, I should have taken care to draft it better. Should I edit the post and structure it better? Is it right to edit your post once it has been published and commented upon? In any case, thanks for the criticism.

As for the irony, I would like to politely disagree with you on that one: I am not attacking people of HN in the post at all!

In fact attacking is the wrong word, IMHO. I am ranting against/criticizing HN-ers criticizing skills. I personally believe that, in the context of HN, your posts, comments & critiques are defined as "your work". So essentially, I am criticizing "your work", don't you think?

Also, I apologised for the rant going slightly off-topic in my last paragraph. I would like to believe that I did not stray too far off-topic but do tell me if I did: I'll take care to construct my future posts better.

Thanks for reading!

mathattack3• 13 years ago

If you're looking for warm fully constructive feedback, there are better places than HN to post. It's like going to a Tea Party website to extoll the benefits of Obamacare. Of course the feedback will be harsh. Some of it might be good too, but don't be surprised that the message can be tough.

DjangoReinhardt17• 13 years ago

Harsh feedback is always oh-so-welcome. Jeering without explanation isn't - for me personally anyway. At least, that's how I behave so I probably hope/expect others to do the same for me.

4hthth4• 13 years ago

What is this? Sorry, but I’m not going to watch shapes flying around my screen to find out.

Oh no, that's such a terrible criticism.

huhtenberg• 13 years ago

You need to have a thick skin when presenting your work for critique regardless of whether you are a programmer or a cook.

Moreover, I would personally take abrasive factual criticism over superficial pats on the back and fake smiles in a heartbeat.

In fact, this -

  Bookmark hell? What about click through stuff hell?
  Needless to say, 5 clicks through, I gave up.

is a very useful feedback. It's raw, but it is the actual uncoated impression of a real user. Live with it, learn from it.

ringmaster• 13 years ago

Useful, maybe. Constructive, no. Especially to someone who didn't understand enough not to do this in the first place.

Just because you should expect the internet to be full of douchebags does not mean you need to contribute to their number. It doesn't hurt to be nice.

Karunamon2• 13 years ago

I don't see anything particularly nasty about the comments called out by the author. One even seemed somewhat humorous in nature (first one).

Look.. if you are unable in this day and age, and this environment, to differentiate between honest criticism directed at your product, in this case "you wrecked my back history", "too much clicking", "too much animation" and insults directed at you (or your child.. what a shameful appeal to emotion), you are in the wrong line of work.

I honestly and truly mean that. If your criterion for "nasty" is a short message containing no insults, no foul language, simply a lack of social niceties book-ending the actual content, you're going to be very unpleasantly surprised when actual end users get ahold of your product and start voicing their annoyance with language that would make Linus Torvalds blush.

Being a labor of love certainly doesn't exempt you from criticism, even less so when you make a "Show HN" post about it!

If you don’t like my work because it is bad, tell me about it.

Here were three very concrete issues presented by random people. I don't know about you, but were I on the receiving end of those pretty reasonable comments, I'd have taken their advice to heart and made changes, not written what amounts to a tone argument in blog post form.

This post is made not in insult of the author or his work - it is made in honest critique of the blog post. Whatever tone is chosen to be read into this post is the reader's choice.

peterwwillis• 13 years ago

  >  Constructive, no. Especially to someone who didn't understand enough not to do this in the first place

That's the whole point of the comment - to tell them not to do this! If we knew they did this on purpose just to piss us off, we wouldn't make the comment to begin with. We'd just put "Asshole."

In general it's not good or useful to present comments in a negative way, because negative comments cause a negative reaction from the intended recipient. But they're still getting the information that there was something specific they need to improve upon. So it's still constructive, it's just also rude.

grimtrigger• 13 years ago

Its funny, but as I program I submit it to a virtual forum in my brain. I'm steadily getting better at simulating trolls and assholes (as well as the nice people) who critique my work. I think this makes my work better.

DanBC5• 13 years ago

Wikipedia has the feedback for their Visual Editor. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedbac...)

I'd love to see examples of other feedback - "oh my god you idiots what have you done?" etc.

stormcrowsx• 13 years ago

Not all criticism is wrapped in a pretty package, but most of it is still useful. You are not your code, if someone attacks your code/product try to get to the useful part of that criticism and don't get bent out of shape about the insults.

I agree people should be more polite but there are some that are just incapable of wrapping their criticism up to be nice.

Speaking on the mentor portion of the article as a Junior Dev I worked under an older Senior Programmer who would flat out say the code I just finished and was proud of sucked, after asking a few questions I'd get to the root of it and learn something. Under the crude insults he was a smart guy who knew his stuff. The way he reviewed code was just part of his personality, he actively tried to be nice but it never came out to others as nice as he thought it was. In the end I'm glad he gave me criticism even if it wasn't pretty, it really helped me to hone my skills.

DjangoReinhardt17• 13 years ago

So what you are saying is some people are like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory - they just can't be bothered to be polite about something they know is inherently wrong?

Welp, I'd not considered that at all! Thank you so much for that perspective. I'll keep that in mind the next time I meet someone like that! :)

mysticllama• 13 years ago

considering you just made a big bang theory reference, i'm inclined to say you had it coming, son

jdhendrickson• 13 years ago

I have also been disappointed in the change of HN over the last few years but he picked some really poor examples to try to show case those issues, this is more jumping on that band wagon while not understanding what the banner on the side says. I will admit I was quickly lost while trying to read this chest beating bravado manifesto mixed (strangely enough) with a lack of self confidence oozing from every other sentence. You know what impresses hackers? Code, quality code that does something non trivial. In academia either no one pays attention to your work and you can think it's great without anyone arguing with you, or they try to tear something truly novel apart like a pack of rabid hyena. When you get on the front page of hacker news some people are going to do the same thing. Think of it as publishing a ground breaking paper. Programmers can be rather laconic, and if this means using a short sentence to let you know you aren't explaining your product/project succinctly enough, or you are requiring to many clicks just to get to the meat of what you want to tell people perhaps it's good advice and you should take it (along with a grain of salt because SOME people are just assholes but assholes rarely give actionable valuable feedback) especially if it's multiple people.

DjangoReinhardt17• 13 years ago

I am OP and the author of the post.

Yup, you are right. I picked some poor examples to showcase my experiences and I should have drafted/edited my post better. I have nobody to blame but myself. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll keep this in mind for the future.

As for the lack of self-confidence, I am working my way through that. I kept thinking it was merely a manifestation of the impostor syndrome. Reading your comment, it seems I have over-estimated myself and I am actually suffering from a lack of self-confidence more than anything else.

To tell you the truth, as an utter newbie, I am never entirely sure if I am doing the right thing so I am cautious with almost everything. Unfortunately for me, the same does not seem to apply with my rants. I really should edit my posts better. My escapist brain tells me to excuse myself by saying, I never expected to get on to the front-page of HN. It is definitely a slow news day, I guess.

Also, the project that I chose as an example in the post isn't mine. I should have made that clear in the beginning itself. It just caused my anguish to bubble over.

Digit-Al• 13 years ago

Not a criticism, but I believe you have misinterpreted the meaning of "imposter syndrome". Imposter syndrome is when someone experienced and who gets credit for their accomplishments does not believe they deserve the credit or praise they receive. If you are a newbie, as you say, then by definition you cannot suffer from imposter syndrome.

spongle2• 13 years ago

End users and reviewers are not going to be all fluffy bunny rabbits on the Internet. Suck it up and fix it. You will gain respect for actually responding constructively rather than ranting about how unfair it is.

In real life it's even harder. To be blatantly honest I nearly cried once when a client ripped the shit out of two weeks of backbreaking work I did for them. Instead of crawling off and whinging I fixed it and the client was happy. This was in 1998 and they're still a client now.

Now try again :)

DjangoReinhardt17• 13 years ago

To quote a song from my childhood.

"I get knocked down But I get up again You're never gonna keep me down."

Right? ;)

philbarr• 13 years ago

Although I would be tempted to refrain from taking life lessons from Chumbawumba. :)

DanBC5• 13 years ago

Asking people to give better feedback is pointless. The arseholes on HN enjoy being arseholes and will condemn you for suggesting they give the same feedback in a less arseholey way.

What is this? Sorry, but I’m not going to watch shapes flying around my screen to find out.

It's tempting to reply to this with a "well, fuck off then." but it's valid critique - some people don't want a presentation, they just want text. Look at man pages - it's possible to improve the typography and the presentation, and include some graphics and CSS, but the information is what people want.

(http://www.openbsd.org/cgi-bin/man.cgi?query=afterboot&sekti...)

As a contrast, look at the mostly positive comments on the 180 days of whatever it was posts - some of the more negative posts got downvotes, and most of the comments seemed positive.

So, maybe it's useful to (avoiding age[1]) say "I'm learning $X and this is what I made? Any useful critique?" You'll still get arseholes but I think you'll have not as many.

[1] Because no matter what you've achieved as a 15 year old there'll be someone on HN to say "Yeah? SO WHAT? That's nothing special."

DjangoReinhardt17• 13 years ago

Good thoughts, thanks! :)

I didn't expect this post to polarise people so much but, in a way, I am glad it did. I have found some interesting conversation behaviors and patterns that will surely stand me in good stead when I post my very own "Show HN" in the (hopefully) near future.

As a quick thought, I'd like to leave you with this:

What is this? Sorry, but I’m not going to watch shapes flying around my screen to find out.

[...]some people don't want a presentation, they just want text. Look at man pages - it's possible to improve the typography and the presentation, and include some graphics and CSS, but the information is what people want.

I'll stretch my neck out here and claim that both posts are offering the same criticism (somewhat). However, different people react differently to the two statements quoted above. For me, it is the second one.

Which one eggs you on more?

chris_wot• 13 years ago

I think it's worthwhile looking at this short statement on the HN guidelines:

Be civil. Don't say things you wouldn't say in a face to face conversation.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

linuxlizard• 13 years ago

I've been programming for years & years. I juuuust missed the punch card era. Whenever I'm approached by a new learner, I remember a story my mother told me.

My mother was studying to be a nurses assistant. She was learning to draw blood. Her first real human patient was a frail, elderly lady. My mom was apologetically poking this woman's arm. "Don't worry, dear," the lady told my mother. "We all have to learn somehow."

Whenever I get poked by a newcomer to the field, I try to help as best I can. We all have to learn somehow.

tomjen3• 13 years ago

If you think those comments are harsh, try dealing with actual users.

thinkersilver• 13 years ago

People have already said it - Grow a thick skin. People will comment not always having enough time to construct their thoughts, others will post their immediate unedited impression, there will be some where English is a second language and then there are the douchebags. It's feedback. The fact that you make it to the frontpage is feedback. The fact that people are writing means that you have struck a nerve. That is a good thing.

Remove the noise from the signal and use it to improve your product. I like HN and I think it is useful and I haven't found a forum that does it better. I can't comment about Reddit because I have never used or read any articles or threads on it and I have no plan to.

yogo• 13 years ago

No, there’s no harm starting at the lowest rung; you do, after all, start at the bottom and make your way to the top. However, it is a bloody outrage when the lowest rung is treated exactly the way Shudras were treated in early-India.

I sort of see what you are trying to say but I don't think this is an apt analogy. Yes, when you start you might tend to get a RTFM from more experienced developers (often rightfully so) but no one is holding you to a class. Asking the right questions and trying to see what the commenter/user is really trying to say might be more helpful in the long run.

You never know, your vitriol might just end up killing the next-big-thing on the internet.

Who knows? You just might uncover a really big pain point the same way.

debacle2• 13 years ago

These kinds of posts are tiring - the Internet White Knight is a tired meme, and has been tired for almost twenty years. Unless you can provide a solution to the problem, you're just creating noise - something, like assholes, that the Internet certainly does not need more of.

Social networking on a grand scale has been around for almost 30 years, and in that time the Internet has remained skeptical, critical, and slightly negative.

Lets think about why that is for a second. The Internet is built on ads. Not content, not content creators, and not Google. Advertising drives the machinations of the Internet and there are very few large sites out there that aren't advertizing driven.

When the underlying pulse of the Internet is marketing, it's no wonder that people take a reserved and slightly negative approach - they don't know whether they're experiencing something genuine or being fed bullshit, and sometimes the answer is both.

So please, be a bit less of an anti-asshole and a bit more understanding about why people take this tack in their online personas - it isn't about an inherent negativity of their personality, but rather a defensive mechanism that they've subconsciously developed due to the reality of what the Internet is - a marketing platform.

DanBC5• 13 years ago

Usenet was famously full of assholes and vigorous flaming. Usenet was (for some time) free of advertising.

Very many other online fora with no advertising have had similar problems with vigorous discussion. See, eg, Wikipedia, where people often have personality clashes.

debacle2• 13 years ago

Parts of usenet were full of assholes. But parts of any ecosystem will be full of assholes.

Also, Wikipedia does not exist in a void. I would posit that more than half of Wikipedia's traffic comes from Google, the poster child for ad driven business in the Internet age.

girvo• 13 years ago

Honestly, even though I've very thick skin and it really doesn't worry me when I see negativity on the internet... I still find it astounding that people are so much harsher behind a keyboard than they ever are in real life.

I'm sure there are studies that explain it, etc. but I still find it interesting, and sometimes it's actually completely unproductive. Hell, adults goading teenagers to kill themselves -- that HAPPENS online. I still don't understand it.

I'm a bit of an asshole in real life. I'm a bit of one on the internet at times; being blunt is necessary at times. But people just seem to forget that there are people behind the screen-name, after all.

I disagree with your thesis here, just by the way. Plenty of sites have nothing to do with marketing, and yet it has remained. Usenet had no advertising either to begin with, but was even WORSE than the 'net at times. I think it's more primal than that, something to do with being "faceless in a crowd" -- the sort of things that cause mobs and riots. *shrugs

MaggieL• 13 years ago

There are no "participation trophies" in programming.

al2o3cr• 13 years ago

Wow, if the examples in this article are the best examples of "assholes on the internet", the author should try reading about the experiences of non-male or non-white coders sometime. "Yer product sux" is positively TAME in comparison...

probablyfiction• 13 years ago

This article brings up something I wish was discussed on HN more often. As a group, we're not very nice. HN comments are typically filled with cynicism and a jaded worldview that is incredibly off-putting.

_pmf_• 13 years ago

Is it wrong of me to have started learning programming at the age of 30? Do my attempts mean squat if I didn’t start the same time as you did?

Maybe it would be worth to consider whether your attempts should be as public as they are. Why does everything has to be made public immediately? Continuous delivery does not mean pushing out sub optimal work just because you can and because nobody has to pay for it.

I don’t see you guys taking up cudgels with Pascal because he wrote treatises in Physics and Philosophy both, do I?

Comparing yourself with a genius is probably not the most humble way of discussing the issue.

niuzeta• 13 years ago

I'll bite.

The presentation for the Bookmark was at best horrible. Just by forcing the reader to repeatedly click on a specific point of the screen just to get a progressive sentence or two, just isn't a way to do it, especially if you don't even give an indicative of where you are at. I gave up at 20th click or so.

Second, let's examine how the link was titled:

  Show HN: Escape from Bookmark Hell

Escape from Hell already gives a connotation that the author believes that the pre-existing system(the bookmarks), which people have been using for a long time, is somehow Hellish and that it is so bad that it needs escaping from.

Of course, perhaps the author has found and solved a problem which none of us knew we had, but if it were a constructive progress, I'm fine with it. But when you have to click seven to eight times, past the buzzwords, just to see exactly what the author is claiming to be such inefficient system, and ten or so clicks furthermore for the proposed solution, it just reeks of arrogance.

At this point I simply pressed a 'back' button, got annoyed, and simply closed the tab, not averting my attention to it ever again.

Apart from a personal experience from the example, here are the takeaways:

I didn't like what I saw. I didn't like the presentation. Which is fine, you can't please everyone. But I did not leave a feedback. To the author of the Bookmark, I didn't exist, or in a way more relevant to a developer, the disgruntled user whose opinion is valuable in improving the product never reached the developer.

That's how unconcerned people usually react.

Instead, you have a group of passionate people who took their time to criticize and comment on the product and the presentation. You should really take it with a grain of salt.

Of course, there should be some assholes, but it's the internet, or even, a group of people. If you had thought somehow that academic developers were all nice and respectful, you would be very sorrily disappointed.

I have no idea if the OP is the author of the Bookmark thing, but normally, when people don't like what they see, they leave, lest leave a comment. Some of the examples the OP listed are actually pretty helpful comments, of this point has already been discussed.

A criticism is better than negligence. Almost always.

DjangoReinhardt17• 13 years ago

Hi, I am OP and nope, I am not the author of the bookmark thing nor am I related to him in anyway.

I am, however, someone who unintentionally empathized with the author of the bookmark thing and posted my anguish. I am now learning a lot from this discussion.

I thanks you for your detailed comment and I particularly liked two statements you made:

1. To the author of the Bookmark, I didn't exist, or in a way more relevant to a developer, the disgruntled user whose opinion is valuable in improving the product never reached the developer.

2. A criticism is better than negligence. Almost always.

I'll keep these in mind forever when evaluating something for someone else from now on. No matter how small, a single line of feedback can lead to some powerful changes, sometimes. Personally, I'll ensure that I'll always craft this constructively but if I'm on the receiving end I won't take it personally if someone chooses not to. :)

As for the original author of the bookmark thing, he is a far better man than I. He has responded very calmly and respectfully to all the jeering/criticism and I continue to remain in awe of him.

I still have a lot to learn, I guess.

Argh There’s an asshole on my internet

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