Girl’s Suicide Points to Rise in Apps Used by Cyberbullies

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/14/us/suicide-of-girl-after-bullying-raises-worries-on-web-sites.html?hpw&_r=0

by kenjackson • 13 years ago

30 56 13 years ago

DanBC3• 13 years ago

(Be aware that this article uses weirdly graphic descriptions of a completed suicide. That kind of description should be avoided because of the Werther effect.)

ask.fm received some press coverage after youths in the UK completed suicide.

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=ask.fm)

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-23825049) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23756069) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23752923) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23751909) (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23727673)

fixermark• 13 years ago

"“Don’t ignore your kids,” Ms. Norman said, “even if they seem fine.”"

That seems like the best piece of advice in the article.

jdludlow• 13 years ago

That and don't give kids unmonitored access to the internet and text-capable cell phones. There's really no reason at all for them to have those things, aside from "everyone else does."

Bud2• 13 years ago

Yes. Because keeping your kids from playing with the other kids the way everyone else is playing has always worked so very well, as an infallible means of preventing bullying.

This is just a simplistic idea. "Unmonitored" is the only useful word in it. It's true that parents need to monitor what their kids are doing.

buo• 13 years ago

I know I'm in the minority here, but my offspring will only have smartphones when they are old enough to buy them and pay for their plans themselves.

sixbrx• 13 years ago

I can agree with that, I've given a smartphone to my teenage daughter, but have had to take it away on weekdays because it's turned into an all-consuming "permanent distraction device". It's amazing how much kids are addicted to social media, it seemed to be leading to the development of a very short attention span before I pulled the plug. We'll see how things go "unplugged".

ChuckMcM3• 13 years ago

I raised 3 daughters, I was tremendously fortunate in that my wife was able to manage home schooling them through their middle school years. (Trust me, nobody asks "but what about interactions with other kids" when we're talking about middle school :-). We also always had dinner together and both my wife and I had a set of 'ice breakers' if you will which if the kids weren't talking we'd bring out. And we'd ask the negative questions too (what was the worst thing about today?) But generally talking, starting from a young age, and working very very hard to keep trust levels high helped (not perfect but nothing is). And I gave my girls monitored access to the Internet (not in their rooms, but in a common area). That too was a subject of discussion and negotiation. (my eldest loved to write up contracts we would all sign).

The common theme though is it takes active parenting, and for some parents it is hard to see the 'value' of being involved in their kids lives. And part of that is never excepting "oh its nothing." as an answer. Easy to say, hard to do.

k-mcgrady• 13 years ago

I'm really curious about one aspect of cyber-bullying. With regular bullying in schools you have to face the person bullying you everyday and without the intervention of an adult it's difficult to stop the abuse. With cyber-bullying you can just close your account and the cyber-bullying stops. You may still encounter the problem in the real world but the cyber portion is finished.

I'm not trying to trivialise it and I understand when you're on the receiving end of bullying it might not seem this simple but every time I've seen one of these stories recently it's a question I've asked myself. Is there any data to show why people who have been cyber-bullied don't just shut down their accounts?

grannyg00se5• 13 years ago

Wondered the same. Her mom closed her facebook acct and took other measures, and the girl went back to other sites. I suppose that if there is a massive concentration of social activity online and you want to be part of it you will endure the bullying rather than be an outcast. Very complicated situation, I'm sure. Can victims become addicted to the attention, even if it is negative?

gametheoretic• 13 years ago

Break it down further - the attention isn't monolithic. There are bullies, there are friends, there are friends who bully, bullies you want to be friends with, shit's complicated. That emotional confusion can get you stuck in a loop. You don't realize you're on a rollercoaster, addicted not to the highs or the lows but the difference between them. Stability, flat ground, feels like flatlining. You're a junkie, and nobody knows it, least of all you, because every inch of it is in your head, where you make sure never to find it. E.g., "Love The Way You Lie."

DanBC3• 13 years ago

See link given below where the sister of a girl who completed suicide described the "addictiveness" of social media apps.

it might not seem this simple

Quite.

Someone feels sad and alone. Social media might be the channel for abuse and bullying, but it might also be where their friends are.

aznjons2• 13 years ago

When you're a young person, peer pressure and need for peer acceptance/interaction is a powerful force that can defy rational action. Young people have limited perspective beyond the immediate social environments of their family and friends.

If all of the interaction at school is in these virtual spaces they may be compelled to try and socialize in the hope of peer acceptance.

Loneliness and social needs can be hard to deal with for some kids and the hope of positive interaction may drive them to keep trying to reach out to their peers even in the face of vicious bullying.

Bud2• 13 years ago

You must not have been a teenage girl lately. To be fair, neither have I, but:

Teenage girls will do ANYTHING to ensure they remain part of the social milieu they want to be in. Going into hermit mode and ignoring everyone else isn't an option that teenage girls are good at conceptualizing.

speeder• 13 years ago

From what I've tried learn about, the problem is NOT only the cyber-bulling...

It is the whole society that is sick, for several reasons (most of these, do not matter now).

But thinking short-term and about a single individual, usually the reason why a individual keeps going online and attracting bullies, is that other stuff is broken on his life, for example that individual might be extremely lonely, giving rise to "attention whoring" behaviour (that quickly attract bullies).

I once made friendship with a girl that was a unhealthy amount of time online, even weirder, she started to treat me like the responsible person for her, even with we living 1500 miles apart... Over time I discovered her father was a dead-beat sort of guy, and her mother was extremely tyrannical, yet kinda lazy, refusing to take her to the doctor for example when she discovered she had yeast infection.

More digging on her life, trying to understand some of her bizarre behaviour, and I found out that her extended family abused her when she was around 4 to 8 years old, including people that were cops and supposed to be moral compass, the environment already her was entirely toxic, she for example regularly participated in lucrative (for her) pyramid schemes and believed them to be legitimate and normal, when I explained what it was, she was confused, and did not wanted to believe the community she was living was dishonest, later more question asked, I figured that she really lived in a kind of cesspool of dishonesty and backstabbing, with everyone being more or less friendly on the front, but always ready to backstab in name of survival, the place was poor, people used stolen electricity, internet was ran by a illegal ISP, her father ran a unlicensed bar on the lowest floor of her home, and bar brawls inside were common...

It became clear to me, that what drove her to attract bullies on internet, was desperation, she was stuck physically in a hard to leave place (a bus to the city downtown was 30 minute walk away, and then it was a 2 hour trip in difficulty terrain, also her parents forbid her from taking a bus anyway, she never used a bus and was already a adult), the only confort she had, was that sometimes random strangers on internet cared for her (like me), but obviously, seeking random hero strangers on internet, is also a very fast way to find random villain strangers (some that even might look like heroes on first glimpse).

kenjackson• 13 years ago

There are different types of cyberbullying. If they are just sending your threatening messages you may just be able to close the account. But if you are actually frightened by the threat associated with the messages, you may feel more scared by not reading them.

Other types of cyberbullying play out in the real world, but still in a way you can't confront the bullies. For example if there an anonymous Twitter account that posts nasty rumors about you. You can cancel Twitter, but everyone else can read it.

Now as adults we can say, "Big deal", but think back to when you were 15. How tough would it be to have mean things broadcast to everyone at the school everyday about you.

mcphilip• 13 years ago

It's not as simple as just shutting down accounts. The bully can contact those that know the target, spurring them on to continue abuse. Consider the case of Amanda Todd:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd

jdietrich• 13 years ago

There's a theory circulating that some victims of online bullying might be engaging in a form of self harm, by deliberately exposing themselves to situations in which they know they will be victimised.

http://www.newstatesman.com/2013/08/reality-askfm-self-harm

clicks• 13 years ago

You're talking about martyr complex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex

I'm pretty sure I went through this in my teenage years, but whether this is a more common problem to the victims of bullying -- that I'm uncertain about.

marvin2• 13 years ago

This is an interesting view, and the same could be said of many types of bullying victims. It's a complex issue. That's not to say that this is true of every or even most victims of bullying. It would be victim blaming at its finest.

Most bullying victims would be able to do something to make the bullying end. But many times, the victim doesn't have this knowledge or is for some other reason able to defend him/herself. I was bullied throughout middle school, but it stopped when I got the social finesse to defuse it. If I had kept on the way I was acting before, I would have become a victim of bullying at my workplace when I was 23. I've heard similar stories from others. You're not the source of the bullying, but there are different social mechanisms which can make you a very tempting target.

Like all difficult interpersonal problems this needs to be attacked from multiple angles. Just wanted to emphasize that bullying is not at its core a form of self-harm.

elorant• 13 years ago

You have to realize that for teenagers all their lives are on the Interwebs. So it’s not just about closing your account on some service and move on. You have an account on Facebook with your real name and all your friends are there. Shutting down the account is like been grounded at home with no access to Internet. For youngsters, Facebook is the Internet.

Besides closing down the account doesn’t mean that there won’t be shit said about you, it just means that you won’t know it directly. But one way or the other it will reach you.

Furthermore, you have to understand that bullying is aimed towards the weak ones. If you have a strong character sure you can ignore it. But for a young girl with low self esteem this could ruin their lives.

Bullying was always around but in an interconnected world it becomes a menace for those afflicted. I for one would like some stronger legislation on this.

jader201• 13 years ago

But Facebook facilitates blocking individuals -- you don't have to completely close your account.

The same is true -- or, should be true -- for many other social applications. If an app has a social element and is likely used by teens/children, then it should have a way to block individuals.

Now, whether the victims choose to block the bullies, that's another problem altogether.

calibraxis• 13 years ago

Kathy Sierra's experiences are very relevant. She didn't just log off; she fled her career and home. "What happened to me pales in comparison to what’s happening to women online today," Sierra said. "I thought things would get better. Mostly, it’s just gotten worse."

(http://pastebin.com/cfNvRDgS and http://www.theverge.com/2013/9/12/4693710/the-end-of-kindnes...)

marvin2• 13 years ago

This isn't a solution. The bully usually knows the victim, so this solution is the equivalent of "just stop hanging out with people". The world has changed since we were kids; communication today is mostly digital. And if the bullying didn't happen online, it would happen in person.

It's just the same problem we've had before, inflicting a new domain. The solution will be the same as always: Active intervention, both towards the perpetrators and the victims.

aznjons2• 13 years ago

I feel like this kind of horrific tragedy must be addressed and especially in the context of virtual/computer facilitated environments by developers and engineers.

Here is a problem that I would like to see combated with machine learning and sentiment analysis. Combined with moderation and report functions efforts can be made to identify extreme bullying and address/stop the perpetrators. Indicators of suicidal thoughts in, for example, Google searches could be a channel for parental notification to prevent these kinds of tragedies.

I am not an expert, but leveraging the technology available to help in the fight against extreme bullying seems like a worthy pursuit alongside education of parents and children as well as stricter legislation on harassment and bullying that leads to injury or death.

enupten• 13 years ago

Given all the backdoors and remote access stuff that are in place already, surely it should be a piece of cake to give parents some sort of remote access to their children's phones ?

grannyg00se5• 13 years ago

This mother actually did close facebook, even moved her kid to a new school. She did quite a bit more than many parents would have and it still wasn't enough. I don't think it is reasonable to put a 24/7 multi-year, constant surveillance burden on the average parent.

And what about enforcement? So you see bad stuff on your kid's phone repeatedly...in the end all you can do is take it away. Then they go to the computer. Then you take that away. Then they stay after school to use the computers there. Really I don't expect the symptom mitigation solutions to be very effective.

jafaku2• 13 years ago

I'm sure that's illegal in most places.

mikeash• 13 years ago

Unlikely. A child's phone is almost certainly the legal property of the parent, who can do more or less what they wish with it.

kleats• 13 years ago

I operate a social network with many young teens, and in nearly all of these cases, they are actually sending the messages to themselves, just like what ask.fm said about that girl that committed suicide.

jsdalton• 13 years ago

they are actually sending the messages to themselves, just like what ask.fm said about that girl that committed suicide

What are you referring to? I did not see this in the article.

mynameishere• 13 years ago

No idea why people would make such a reference without explaining it. He means this

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2389212/Hannah-Smith...

...it would explain the question, "Why didn't she just close her account?"

ChuckMcM3• 13 years ago

I would support making the parents of children who bully liable for civil penalties in cases like these.

grannyg00se5• 13 years ago

How? The parents wouldn't even know. Sounds like you want to legislate a certain parenting rigor involving a high level of parental involvement.

pstack• 13 years ago

Naw, let's put the onus on the internet and force everyone to submit their anonymity and browse only via a paid-for internet license using their real identity, instead.

That way nobody ever gets their feelings hurt and no adults have to get off their asses and do the hard work of raising or looking after children, be they parents of bullied kids, parents of bullies, school administrators, teachers, or cops. If we just skunk the internet, we can save all these poor souls from doing any heavy lifting.

Parents wont' have to go to the school or police or other parents about their poor kid. Other parents can continue to say "kids will be kids" and teachers/administrators can continue to watch youtube videos during class while pretending not to be aware of the harassment and violence occurring in their classrooms and hallways five feet away from them.

ChuckMcM3• 13 years ago

Well in general there are three things that go along with this;

1) Creating the legislation/framework which is to say put into place the structure about how people can be found complicit and sanctions based on various schemes.

2) Outreach and awareness to the at risk population that help is out there and that the behavior is unacceptable and that something other than a scolding is at risk here.

3) Civil actions in high profile cases which reinforce the message and provide case law to guide other actions.

An analog might be civil actions against bars for serving alcohol to clearly inebriated patrons. We did a booth where we sold beer at an Art & Wine festival and had to get mandatory training on the signs so that we wouldn't do something that made us liable under California's laws if we served drunk people and they later did something bad.

But before we got to the 'how' we should probably make sure that we agree that this a parenting problem. In my day reporting bullying to parents was often met with a shrug rather than action, and school expulsion a temporary set back for bullies.

amerkhalid• 13 years ago

Parents and teachers are responsible for their kids' behavior. If they raise bullies, they should be held responsible. Yes it means spending time with your kids and paying attention to them, if someone is too busy to be responsible parent, then they should pay for their negligence.

rtpg• 13 years ago

Parents are held responsible for their kids behaviors all the time. A kid breaks something in a store? the parents pay.

bsullivan012• 13 years ago

I'm even more strict than you: Even their uncles and up to their third cousins. And death penalties for them. Because everyone controls their teenage kids with a remote control, and if all fails they get beat some sense into them without repercussions.

Frankly even CTOs of social companies, app makers or search engines should be at least held civilly responsible. Without them it wouldn't have happened.

conjecTech• 13 years ago

Use of sarcasm like this doesn't really add to the conversation and has no place on HN.

aperture• 13 years ago

I don't want to knock down the issues of cyber bullying, but I don't feel this article does anything to fix the situation. All this article tells me is this girl was a victim, her mom stopped it, then her mom relaxed and suicide resulted after further bullying.

The article hints that there was some drama with a boyfriend, but doesn't flesh any of that out. I want to address the bullies. Did they realize the impact that they were having? Were they angry at her perhaps spreading rumors, acting superior in school, what was the bully's perspective of this girl? As hinted by other comments here, why do teenagers choose to go more and more into the negative feedback loop they create in social media.

It is also worth considering what social applications can do about this. All a social app needs to say is "Hey, here's a person from your old school who bullied you. You should be his friend." and all the ads marketing towards advil after her google search?

Cyberbullying is a field I have so many questions about. This article serves to show that we know so little about cyberbullying, but it is a serious concern.

NAFV_P• 13 years ago

If this had happened to me 20 years ago, my parents and teachers would have said, "you are too sensitive, you need to ignore it". This may have been said to me in front of the perpetrators. Then I would be reminded that I must be careful regarding my behaviour, I must not place the reputation of the school in disrepute.

lcedp2• 13 years ago

You’ve reached the limit of 10 free articles a month.

So a link on a Hackers' site suggests me to buy subscription in order to obtain information about (possibly important) social topic. Is it acceptable for hackers' culture these days?

DanBC3• 13 years ago

Is it acceptable for hackers' culture these days?

Yes, paying for content that you consume is generally acceptable. Or working out a method to circumvent the paywall.

lcedp2• 13 years ago

I don't mind anybody paying whatever they wish for and I'm well aware about user-agents, tor and stuff. Though paywall link on hackers site looks unnatural to me. It's all about sharing and openness. At list informational content should be accessible. "oh look such a tragic story, keep your children safe subscribers (we don't care about non-subscribers' kids, though)"

LinaLauneBaer2• 13 years ago

I was a victim of cyber bullying myself: 12 years ago. At that time a class mate simply registered a domain and put a guest book up there. Many of my other class mates used the guest book to backbite me. The hottest topics were my sexual orientation (I was 14 years old back then, so no fun), my stupidness, and so on. It was very bad. The guest book can still be seen in the web archive(.org) and every time I do so I start crying. It was a horrible time.

Granted: Cyber bullying was only one part of the bullying against me. I saw those haters every day in school. In school I was physically beaten. At home I was beaten psychological by this guest book. Even people I did not know or interacted with back then suddenly began writing bad things about me in this guest book.

When I got better in programming I wrote a small script that checks the availability of that said domain. A few months ago that script told me that the domain is now available. I immediately registered the domain. It is now in my possession.

e402• 13 years ago

Wow, the bully held onto it for 12 years? That's amazing. Have you thought of putting up the tale, on that domain, of what happened to you?

LinaLauneBaer2• 13 years ago

Yes the guy held onto it for 12 years.

Putting the story up there would be a bold move... I am still traumatized by it.

javajosh• 13 years ago

I'm not normally a fan, but this seems to be a good application for some traditional vigilante justice. Yes, it's distasteful, but if done correctly (think "The A-Team") it can be a force for good.

Imagine, a team of elite hackers, roving the internet, protecting the weak. Bullies who think they are safe and secure behind the parents, the schools, and the society that ignores the reality of the fact that "mere words" cause a great deal of pain (and, as http://xkcd.com/1216/ points out, words cause far more pain than any physical torment).

I can imagine that such a team would often target the power structures around the kids, first asking parents or teachers to intervene, and if that doesn't work, resorting to things like straight-up blackmail (find some dirt on the parents to force them to force their bullying kids to stop going on line).

I imagine that for 90% of cases it would be enough to a) notify the parents and b) send them email notifications every time their child (tries to) say something hateful.

And, at the very least, it's a fun web serial concept.

static_typed• 13 years ago

There will always be bullies, especially in the school years, the big difference is now that the internet gives them further reach, if, the victim allows it. Not that the victim should have to avoid any websites, but thankfully there is that option, whether they choose it, or a parent or guardian is able to step in and do so.

I think the bigger problem is this - how do we setup online environments, social platforms where bullies can be quickly outed? Make all posts public? Moderated posts only?

In in ideal world, the parents of the bullies would be informed of the actions of their offspring, which does in some cases happen, and in a few cases work, but is harder to enact online.

The one single thing I always advise parents with children online is simple - be the person paying the bill, own the admin rights, and until the mid teen years, make sure you keep an eye on the sites and contact. Only step in if there is a real problem.

bloodofheroes• 13 years ago

The writer successfully alerts us to the problem of how these apps are being used, but I'd like to hear more about this girl's family life.

Why no mention of her father? Why does she have different last name than her mother? Why was she "dating" at such a young age? Why is her mother portrayed in isolation rather than as part of a healthy community?

Everything in the article seems to be symptomatic of the issues that we should really be talking about.

Girl’s Suicide Points to Rise in Apps Used by Cyberbullies

Related Stories