Opposition to and problems with neckties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necktie#Opposition_to_and_problems_with_neckties

by amichail • 17 years ago

13 31 17 years ago

en.wikipedia.org

amichail3• 17 years ago

It's hard to see neckties as anything more than a way to discourage independent thought and creativity.

eguanlao7• 17 years ago

I don't see that at all. I don't see how a knotted piece of silk that completes a certain sartorial ensemble; and that comes in a variety of colours, patterns, and textures; discourages independent thought and creativity... especially creativity. Maybe you're associating it with stuffy "suits"...? It's like saying, "all Asians are good at math," "all white men can't dance," and "all Italians are in the Mafia."

amichail3• 17 years ago

A necktie serves no practical purpose. And forcing people to wear one who couldn't care less about fashion is simply a method of encouraging conformity (e.g., to get employees to do as they are told without question).

pg2• 17 years ago

I find constraining clothes discourage thought. They're kind of like noise. The constraint makes you notice them, and that takes some small amount of attention away from whatever you're thinking about.

Back when people used to dress more formally, everyone knew this, at least unconsciously. When someone needed to work late into the night on some hard problem, they'd take off their jacket and loosen their tie. This was so common that in movies it became a standard symbol for working hard.

eguanlao7• 17 years ago

I thought I'd share this thread with my favourite gentlemen's clothing forum: http://askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?p=944058

The men who frequent these fora are not those fashionistas you are probably thinking of. They range from developers to lawyers to university professors, and we all have one thing in common: a love for fine, gentlemen's clothing. I'm talking about bespoke tailoring, handcrafted shoes, seven-fold ties, etc. Yes, old-school tailors still exist--visit my tailor's Web site if you're one of the very few here who's interested in learning more: http://paulchangcustomtailors.com/.

cyunker• 17 years ago

How can an article of clothing do that?

imgabe• 17 years ago

If you find a necktie discouraging you from independent thought and creativity, you probably never had any to begin with.

eguanlao7• 17 years ago

I wear neckties whenever the mood strikes me, and I'm a Java developer. I was well into clothing before I became a programmer. I like neckties for aesthetic reasons, and the same goes for suits and sport jackets. Yes, I've been harassed for this, but I just ignore the snide remarks. If you're a developer who has always been into elegance and grooming, then check out these blogs: http://englishcut.com/ and http://asuitablewardrobe.dynend.com/.

minus• 17 years ago

English cut is fantastic, I'd love a suit from Thomas. The London Lounge is also good for information and discussions: http://thelondonlounge.net/

seldo• 17 years ago

Neckties have always struck me as anachronistic, even sexist. What item of women's clothing has been around for 100 years and is still regularly worn without modification? Especially one that serves no functional purpose? Why are men still expected to wear fashion designed literally centuries ago?

I feel the same applies to suits, but people who (unlike me) actually wear suits assure me the designs change frequently in ways that are apparently non-obvious. All I know is those guys on 50s newsreels appear to be wearing the same thing the guys downtown are wearing today, and that's not true of basically any other popular item of clothing I can think of (hats? maybe?).

amichail3• 17 years ago

There are various levels of encouraging conformity. The necktie is by far the worst in Western culture. This is followed by formal attire.

It's all a way to keep employees in line, following orders without question.

jerf• 17 years ago

I don't like ties either... but I don't like them because they are uncomfortable. In the right place, they still look good, I just don't care to sacrifice myself to look that good.

Suits live on because they can make anyone look good and can make a lot of people look stunning. You do want to avoid the spate of incredibly ugly suits from around the 70s and 80s (which my father still wears, bleh) made from material that would look best upholstering a couch, but otherwise, they've lasted for reason.

That said, I have one suit and I've worn it once in 10 years. (To a series of 2001 computer science job fairs. Which is to say, "waste of money".) But I have to admit I do look relatively good in it.

JimmyL3• 17 years ago

If you think your tie is uncomfortable, it's likely that the real culprit is a too-small shirt and an improperly-tied knot.

When the two of those things are done right, you shouldn't even notice that you're wearing a tie.

dminor• 17 years ago

>Neckties have always struck me as anachronistic, even sexist. What item of women's clothing has been around for 100 years and is still regularly worn without modification? Especially one that serves no functional purpose?

High heels strike me as much worse than ties.

jimfl• 17 years ago

If a necktie did for my head (or pects) what heels do for the calves, I'd occasionally wear one.

tnaleid• 17 years ago

Neckties always struck me as phallic symbols. A long article of clothing worn only by men that starts at the base of the head and points at the crotch.

bravura2• 17 years ago

Hence the tiebar, which intend purpose is to allow you to pop out your tie. The further, the more phallic (and dandy).

jonny_noog• 17 years ago

I have needed to wear neckties and suits with varying regularity across various jobs that I have had (I've been a web developer of some kind for most of my professional career).

What gets me the most about suits and neckties is that even in countries such as mine, where the weather gets very warm for a large portion of the year, many people are still expected to wear neckties and suits year round. It reminds me of a saying that my mother (who grew up in the Philipines) is quite fond of, that I gather is paraphrased from an old song: "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun". What she meant to convey when she used this saying was to comment on the propensity of western cultures to continue the use of their own cultural norms, behaviours and clothing styles even when the environment in the places they colonised and began living in made no sense for them to do so.

I also see footage of "salary men" in Japan walking to work in their suits and ties for example, and I think it's kind of sad that most everyone seems to have conformed to the western suit and tie style regardless of whether it makes sense to do so for their country's climate or cultural heritage.

menloparkbum• 17 years ago

I've never worn a tie to work, nor worked anywhere with any sort of dress code. Living in northern california, the whole concept seems a bit foreign to me. Bankers and doctors don't even wear ties. If you're wearing a suit and tie you're probably a used car salesman or 2nd rate real estate broker.

However, I've worn suits and ties to things like new year's eve parties and art gallery openings and I felt like it helped me pick up women, if only because I looked different than the hordes of shaggy guys with their ill-fitting hipster gear. Note to dudes: if you weigh more than 150 lbs you don't look good in a tight t-shirt and skinny pants.

bravura2• 17 years ago

Note to dudes: If you weigh less than 150 lbs and are not short, you probably have no idea what your pant waist size is. Most of you think it's 32 inches. That's wrong, and your pants look baggy.

JimmyL3• 17 years ago

For those of you (us?) that wear ties, what knot do you use?

eguanlao7• 17 years ago

For suits, I wear shirts with a variety of spread collars to match the formality of the suit. (Yes, suits vary in formality depending on colour, pattern, weave, and fineness of the fabric.) And with those shirts, I like the Windsor and the half-Windsor knots.

For sport jackets and button-down collared shirts, I tie the less formal four-in-hand. I have used the half-Windsor with Oxford-cloth button-downs (OCBDs) too.

I have also used the Pratt knott for OCBDs if the tie is too long for me. (I'm only 5'5" tall.)

brlewis• 17 years ago

I wonder if Bill Cattey (my first boss at MIT) still has his debugging tie. The idea was that software bugs hide when programmers are near, but you use the tie to fool them into thinking someone important is using the software. Then they come out.

Here's bill when he's not debugging: http://ourdoings.com/brlewis/photo.html?th=9f/6t/g5hn.jpg...

Opposition to and problems with neckties

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