Ask HN: How do I startup if I'm not a developer?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=542380

14 21 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Some friends and I have an idea for a web startup that we really believe in, but we have no way to execute because we definitely need at least one real developer. What would you propose we do? I'm experienced with PHP (but not frameworks: I'm horrible with MVC) and design. We have another good designer onboard. And the third leg is the business leg, the guy who gets us incorporated and pitches our idea to our customers.

We have no real, hardcore developer though.

I know the easy thing to say would be "just learn to code!" And yes, that's our current approach. But is there a better way? It's going to take a lot more time than we'd like to become proficient enough at either Django or Rails (which is what we're looking at) or even Cake, CodeIgniter, or Symphony (all of which are last resort, more for speed since I'm good with PHP right now and just need to learn more in the OOP/MVC area).

Is it possible to outsource our product (rentacoder, getafreelancer, etc)? The lingering question with this is, how do we call it our product if we had no hand in building it, or that's not even really the biggest problem -- without giving our hired coder equal equity stake in our startup? What's to stop the coder from just taking the finished product and running?

Is there a way to protect the code as proprietary intellectual property of the company?

icey• 17 years ago

You pay a contractor in cash, not equity. Henry Ford wasn't on the assembly line and he did just fine.

NonEUCitizen2• 17 years ago

Yes, and don't place an ad on craigslist (or anywhere) looking for engineers if you're only going to pay equity.

ericbieller• 17 years ago

If you wouldn't be confident programming it yourself, try to find someone who can provide a resume and at least 3 good references.

As long as you do your research, you can increase your certainty that your coder is legit and not out to steal ideas.

To be honest, I would recommend learning a bit more about MVC and OOP and just creating it yourself. Most applications are pretty rough when first launched. Just make sure you plan the project out to the best of your ability and keep scalability in mind. It is inevitable that you hand the project over to a more experienced coder so you would need to prepare for that as well. Hope this helps.

stuff4ben• 17 years ago

I would either partner with a developer, which in effect would give them equity or you hire a contractor or fulltime developer. I would imagine that you would have to give them specs. Otherwise I'd assume they would take a hand in crafting your idea, which is something it sounds like you want to prevent.

noodle2• 17 years ago

1) do not use rentacoder, elance, or similar services. you get what you pay for. if you're looking for help, look around the established developer communities. HN is a good start. i also like the job board at freelanceswitch. there are others.

2) Q:"What's to stop the coder from just taking the finished product and running?" A: a contract

3) my suggestion would be to hire a freelancer or a development company and pay them their rate, and if you like their work, consider offering them an equity bonus to sign on full-time.

p.s. your website doesn't do anything. you should fix that ;)

owkaye• 17 years ago

It is very important that you recognize a simple fact here:

Nothing -- absolutely NOTHING -- can stop an unethical coder from stealing the code you've hired him to write. A contract will never prevent a dishonest person from doing what he wants to do. After all, it's only paper.

Therefore your primary focus should be to find someone you are absolutely sure you can trust. Only this type of person will stick to his legal agreements.

noodle2• 17 years ago

indeed. in the end, the law is only a deterrent. if someone really wants to murder, the law and consequences won't stop them. similarly, if someone really wants to steal your code, they'll do it. contracts are just a very nice, cheap way to protect yourself and your company.

checkwit• 17 years ago

Isn't that how facebook got started. He was supposed to develop ConnectU.

alain94040• 17 years ago

1. Don't try to learn to become a programmer. You'll fail miserably since it's not your sweet spot.

2. Don't go after elance and other pay-for-hire sites.

You need a technical co-founder, someone who believes in your product and is willing to work very hard and do whatever it takes to make the product a reality. Contractors do not fit that mold.

Personally, I started a community with some friends to help people find technical co-founders, so you may want to check it out (http://fairsoftware.net).

By the way, the problems you describe about protecting your IP are exactly why we put a strong legal framework in place (the Fair Project, govered by the Software Bill of Rights). Even if you don't use the SBR, feel free to post a description of your project. People have found technical co-founders through our site, so it can happen.

And then HN is a good place, although I'd hate to see it turn into a bulletin board of wanted ads.

crsmith• 17 years ago

Didn't Kevin Rose go to elance

tjic• 17 years ago

What's your team so far?

1) you: the "idea guy"

2) a designer ("another" designer ... so you're a designer too?)

A great hacker is more key to making something great (and profitable) than a great designer.

IMO, the team should be either:

1) hacker, hacker

2) hacker, semi-hacker/semi-bizdev/semi-designer

3) hacker, bizdev

or something like that.

* Hewlett Packard was #1.

* Google is #1.

* Apple was #2: Woz and Jobs.

I think you've got the fundamental mix of your team wrong.

Put the idea on hold and start networking to meet hackers.

Go to Ruby and Rails get-togethers with a stack of business cards. Look for the crufty kid who looks like he sleeps in a cardboard box with his skateboard. Look for the fat guy with the ponytail and beard. Look for the quiet guy who never talks much. Chat these folks up, give them your card, and find out why they're studs (or, if they're not studs, find out who they regard as studs).

Meet these folks for coffee. Throw your idea out there. Listen to their ideas (coming up with ideas is the hard part).

As a matter of fact, ignore your idea.

Keep networking.

Sooner or later you'll find one or two other guys who you click with, and with whom you've got a lot of mutual respect.

Then do something with them.

It probably won't be the idea you have right now.

jamesbritt• 17 years ago

"Look for the crufty kid who looks like he sleeps in a cardboard box with his skateboard. Look for the fat guy with the ponytail and beard. Look for the quiet guy who never talks much. "

Look for the person who can express themselves coherently. If you're going to partner up with someone in a business, good communication is essential.

plinkplonk• 17 years ago

"IMO, the team should be either:

1) hacker, hacker

2) hacker, semi-hacker/semi-bizdev/semi-designer

3) hacker, bizdev

or something like that."

I was planning to reply in detail, but the above expresses most of what I wanted to say very succinctly.

I am on the other side of this coin. A lot of "idea people" contact me every day to "do enough coding for a prototype and then we'll make a shitload of money". This is how I separate the serious people from the non serious ones.

(a) Do you have (some) funding? If you don't have sufficient money to cover my expenses for a few months (and being in Bangalore, I can get by on significantly less than I could in the United States say, but otoh I get the more kooky "idea people") you have nothing to trade with. This question eliminates 90 % of the "I have a cool idea" folks

(b) Do you have deep domain knowledge? If you've worked in an industry 20 years you are much more credible when thinking of a killer product than if you are a freshly minted MBA with no record of having done anything significant in life but has ideas about " a twitter for insurance" or whatever.

(c) What risk are you taking? I get a lot of "offers" from people holding down corporate jobs who want me to work fulltime (of course with zero or minimal compensation) on the "idea",but who will hold on to their jobs till "the idea gets some traction". :-)

(d) If I build a prototype for you in the next 3 months (say) what makes you think you can sell it or raise money? Are you just hoping or do you have customers lined up (read Steven Blank's "epiphany" book for the kind of customer you need). Do you know any venture capitalists or angel investors personally?

So in a nutshell, if you have enough money to fund my lifestyle for a few months while I work on the idea, if you have a really good idea, based on deep domain knowledge, if you can market/sell the idea, and you are working fulltime for your startup then you get my attention.

Look at it this way. Most hackers add value by being able to build anything they can conceive of / believe in. They could be building anything. Why should they build your idea? The good ones are probably working on other interesting/profitable things already.

Oh yeah don't please outsource unless you know the person to be a really good programmer. As mentioned above it is hard for a non programmer to judge programmers.

Good Luck.

shiny• 17 years ago

I can code Ruby/Rails/Merb (not an expert by far, but I may be able to get the job done), am in college looking for something cool to do, and would be willing to co-found (or develop at a fee) if I liked the idea.

Hit me up at the email in my profile if interested.

SwellJoe• 17 years ago

If you aren't a coder yourself, hiring a coder can be incredibly challenging. Recognizing a good hacker vs. a bad one on a site like rent-a-coder or elance when you aren't a good hacker yourself is pretty much entirely random. In fact, it might be worse than random, because the worst developers on sites like might be the best at fooling non-hackers. I've done (non-core competency) development jobs through both, and I've gotten pretty good at sussing out who's going to waste my time by delivering code I'll have to throw away, and I've been a programmer since I was a kid, but I still make mistakes sometimes.

I've noticed a trend that leads me to believe that non-hackers would end up choosing the wrong developer in more cases than random chance would dictate:

The best hackers have a tendency to be honest, even if it means they're less likely to get the job. They will point out their limitations, explain what they don't yet know about the problem domain, and talk about the interesting (to them) aspects of the problem domain (which are probably the least interesting to a non-programmer). Now, great hackers aren't the only people who are honest, of course...which further complicates things. Folks who just don't have the skills may be setting their sites a bit too high, and will fail without intending to do any wrong. So mere honesty doesn't do the selection for you. It just makes it easier for someone who understands what needs to be done to choose the person to do the job.

The worst hackers don't care, because they know they're going to deliver shoddy work no matter what they say. The worst providers on these sites offer the world, and will claim tons and tons of relevant experience. They will rip off existing products or websites and slap a new coat of paint on it and call it a "prototype" that they made just for your bid. They will produce copious requirements and bid documents to snow you into thinking that because they can produce so much specific documentation about the job to be done it means they actually understand the problems.

So, while I've had occasionally good luck with outsourcing work via a site like that, I would not recommend it for someone that doesn't have some experience interviewing developers and then working with the developers after they've been hired, especially if you don't have a lot of development experience yourself.

vaksel• 17 years ago

Don't waste time looking for a technical co-founder. If all you have is an idea, you'll never find one. Ideas are a dime a dozen, and most programmers get pitched all the time with "build me my site, do all the work, we'll make millions, and you'll get half of equity!"

So unless you already have legitimacy by getting some funding, you'll just be wasting time.

The problem is that if the programmer truly has the entrepreneurial spirit to take the plunge, chances are that they are already doing their own startup, and don't need your idea.

I say go with one of those freelancer sites, get someone to build you something basic, and then when you have a more or less ready product..then you can try looking for that techie co-founder.

This way you'll actually have something to offer to the coder, and on the plus side, you won't need to give away most of your equity for something that'll cost you a few thousand dollars.

teuobk• 17 years ago

A few thoughts:

- Kevin Rose went to a coder on elance to build the first version of Digg, so that route can be successful - Try posting fliers on the kiosks or in the CS buildings at college campuses. I'd recommend giving as much detail as possible about the idea on the poster; merely asserting that "I HAVE A GREAT IDEA!!!1!" isn't likely to get you far. - Network, network, network.

HSO• 17 years ago

I wouldn't dismiss the "learn to code" advice altogether. Can you do/learn enough to build a prototype? Perhaps one iteration level beyond? Then you're good to go, IMO. Getting to that prototype, you learn what is difficult and what is impossible for you. During the time it takes you to build the prototype or first crummy version of your idea, you are learners and as such can more easily connect with your local gurus than as business types who WANT something. You learn what is difficult and what is impossible for you, that is you get a grip on your coding problem. You will also learn to appreciate who of your gurus is helpful or has the expertise you need. Not to forget, someone who "just" wants a stupid technical monkey to code his brilliant business idea will always be resented by the good monkeys. A modicum of knowledge or passion for the subject makes a huge difference in perception and respect, for both sides.

NonEUCitizen2• 17 years ago

If you're not technical, best thing is to learn how, or be able, to raise a lot of money.

Re: protecting IP, you'd want to write up the contract as "work for hire" -- then the code is yours. You'd also want to read up on the various open source licenses so you know what kind of open source code, if any, you'd be comfortable with the developer including in the work.

ibsulon• 17 years ago

Wait... you know PHP? Why not just use PHP? Really, it may not be popular with the HN crowd, but use what gets the job done. Have confidence in yourself, and get a prototype done. That will give you the experience you need.

quellhorst• 17 years ago

Pay other people to code, or learn to code. Nobody is going to code for equity in your idea.

Another option is to join a hacker who is starting a company and work on their idea.

Ask HN: How do I startup if I'm not a developer?

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