Ask HN: Anyone interested in working for clients, not just building startups?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=540687

by twelvedigits • 17 years ago

6 11 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

The prospect of building an app, or a startup, from the ground up is intriguing and incredibly sexy. Your photo in Fast Company, your name written all over HN, the chance for TechCrunch to blog about you and spike your traffic for a day

I've done it, I'm in the middle of it, and it's fun but it's very tough. And I say this as the business/strategy half of a startup tht hasn't yet failed (www.youintern.com). It's been incredibly challenging.

I do this while working full-time in advertising and have for a year now considered trying to combine my skills and network with a talented programmer to try and create a service agency -- a company that builds tangible solutions, small or large, for all manner of clients.

Advantages would be that there's more direct money up-front, conceivable ends of every project, the challenge to keep working on new ones, and the prospect of acquiring new business regularly.

Starting the next boxee is exciting and inherently risky. Why do programmers so rarely consider using their talents for more immediate gains? Why the assumption that a startup is destined to become a 20-person hot shop with a cool office and news articles, but a "digital agency" could not?

I'd love to discuss this with anyone in NYC: chaparian at gmail dot com

yan• 17 years ago

Emailed.

hotshothenry2• 17 years ago

I do both. I'm currently developing my own startup thing on the side, working full time as a web developer, and doing web development/design work for clients

twelvedigits3• 17 years ago

An argument that I'd expect to hear is, "my startup work is more personally fulfilling."

Do you find this to be true? If yes, do you think this is because of the clients that you work with?

hotshothenry2• 17 years ago

I definitely find this to be true, I think it's more to do with the fact that you're working for yourself and setting your own guidelines rather then having set hours or a strict set of tasks to do at a regular job.

noodle2• 17 years ago

why does someone just have to build startups? i do both. actually, i do all 3 -- i have a full-time job, work for clients freelance-style, and spend time working on personal startups when i manage to come up with an idea worth executing on.

twelvedigits3• 17 years ago

Nobody has to, it just dominates the discussion on this forum.

noodle2• 17 years ago

because thats what the forum is about? :)

billroberts2• 17 years ago

Services-based companies are of course a well-established and perfectly respectable type of business, but a very different kind of business to a product company. I worked in a service business for many years and it has good and bad points. It's less risky, because in general you don't do any work unless you know you are going to get paid for it, whereas with a product you have to do lots of development and marketing before you really find out whether your product will sell or not.

You do get lots of variety, but on the other hand you don't get so much choice or control of what you are working on.

A successful product business can be more successful (in terms of profit) than a service business. Because if lots of people like your product you sell a lot of it, with very little marginal cost of production.

For a services business to make a lot of money, then you need to have a lot of staff. Then you need an HR department and middle managers and procedures and a dress code and before you know it you're a pointy-haired boss :-) And then making sure all those mouths remain fed is a tough task for the sales team. If you are short of work, you have to keep paying the salaries and you can lose money really quickly, whereas in good, busy times, the profits you can make are capped by the number of people and acceptable charge rates.

Of course you don't need to try to get big - you could set up a small service business and keep yourself in a pretty good lifestyle, without trying to become the next Accenture.

My choice to go for a product style company was mainly because of the creative aspects of it - I wanted to be able to decide myself what would go into the software, rather than having to develop someone else's idea of a product all the time.

twelvedigits3• 17 years ago

Interesting points. My issue is with your contention that as a service company, you don't decide what goes into the software. This is where a web production/service agency can learn from the creative industry.

Such a service agency should position itself as an industry expert, one that clients turn to for solutions, not products. That is, if a client -- let's say, a chain of local gyms -- comes to you and needs a website built, it shouldn't be turnkey and you should expect to contribute your thinking to the end product, not just the code that creates that.

Not code monkeys. Inform and shape the final product, because you know more than your client. They need you for a reason. They don't know the best answer, you do. That's why they hired you.

billroberts2• 17 years ago

You're absolutely right that that's how it ought to work. And when you have a good relationship with your clients you can sometimes get close to that. In practice it won't always work like that, but you can try to pick and choose your assignments and 'train' your clients to move in that direction.

jlees• 17 years ago

I think a lot of the 'stigma' if you can call it that about consultancy and agencying is the perceived effort to reward ratio.

Startup? Put in some effort, create something awesome, become billionaire and retire to beach with daiquiri.

Consulting/agency? Have to put in graft every day for clients to keep the thing going. No big cash out, no ultimate win, constant pedal power. Maybe the odd holiday to the Bahamas.

I'm not saying this is true, mind. But it's definitely the 'divide' I've seen and heard between the two options when talking to other entrepreneurs.

On the flipside some of us love building stuff to our own specification and not other people's. The previous points in this thread about choosing what you work on can make or break the idea, really.

Ask HN: Anyone interested in working for clients, not just building startups?

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