Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

by trevin • 13 years ago

48 82 13 years ago

superflit2• 13 years ago

I do think sexism exist, but I think the MAJOR problem is as...ole men. I am not a full gentleman but let's think: 1) I think some woman attractive. I will not touch her as first move or even approach or stand too near.

2) There is better ways to extend the conversation instead of inviting to my 'bedroom'.

3) No or other excuses means no, thanks and farewell.

4) conferences are professional places, no place for flirting (they invented bars for that).

5) Ring on the finger? SHE is NOT interested.

Somehow some men think that if the woman is NOT interested she has be 'wrong' or deserve more 'strong' signals. I support more woman at the conferences and I wish more woman take some stand at this cases and say it loud: 'TAKE OUT YOUR FILTHY HANDS from me' Saying that loud will teach a great lesson and avoid some posts. The main problem is not sexism is lack of politeness and manners.

blablabla123• 13 years ago

I think the point is more this: everything is optimized for men, it's like a self-amplifying loop. Sure the things you mention are also a problem, but women face that everywhere.

eightpersimmons• 13 years ago

Lack of manners and as..ole men are enabled by a sexist environment. These are symptoms of an underlying problem. Women don't feel safe in these environments because of the behavior of a relatively small number of individuals, but these individuals are enabled by a system problem in which their behavior is rationalized and ignored as just s social faux pas.

coldtea7• 13 years ago

>Women don't feel safe in these environments

Women don't feel safe in tech conferences? Like it's south central Los Angeles or something?

I've attended several tech conferences, with women colleagues and friend, and I've not seen all this hoopla people constantly bring up on HN. Heck, those things don't even happen on Linux and OSS conferences, much less in business tech meetings. Groping a woman? WTF have you witnessed that?

I don't know, maybe it's that conferences in Europe are different.

npfmn8• 13 years ago

Why is it the responsibility of women to take the stand? Isn't it the responsibility of the people making unprofessional advances to stop and silent bystanders to tell them so? Why is a professional conference ever even thought of as a venue for making advances?

I don't understand why you think this is not sexism.

lmm• 13 years ago

As a bystander who becomes aware of such behaviour of course it's your responsibility to get involved. But if we're talking, as the article does, about a woman and one man alone in an elevator, and that man happens to be an asshole, what can the rest of us realistically do to prevent this happening?

chc3• 13 years ago

> Isn't it the responsibility of the people making unprofessional advances to stop

Well, yes, but if your plan to stop sexism is something along the lines of "Wait for jerks to suddenly become good people," you're doing a disservice to their victims.

> and silent bystanders to tell them so

I don't feel like it is my business to step in and speak for a woman who has not implicitly or explicitly asked me to do so. That seems like a really degrading viewpoint. If she clearly wants the guy to go away and he won't, yes, go up and help her. But the idea that it's my job to run around policing women's sexuality is just antediluvian.

superflit2• 13 years ago

I do not think that it is sexism BECAUSE it is SEXUAL HARASSMENT or even sexual abuse in some conditions. Sexism is when you are promoted or NOT promoted because you are a WOMAN. Or someone ask a WOMAN to CLEAN some spilled coffee because she is a WOMAN...

oh_sigh11• 13 years ago

> Why is it the responsibility of women to take the stand?

Because you can't control the actions of others, but you can control your response to the actions of others. As much as any activity can be labelled taboo, humans are dynamic creatures and have the ability to break taboo at any moment, without any kind of notice.

> Isn't it the responsibility of the people making unprofessional advances to stop

Yes. But to suggest that is blue sky thinking. Isn't it the responsibility of criminals to stop criminal behavior? Why don't they?

> and silent bystanders to tell them so

Maybe. Bystanders don't have perfect insight into the victims mindset. What if a husband put his hand on his wifes knee? Should a noble bystander lay into the husband for his sexist behavior? Do you assume that every bystander is listening to every conversation within earshot, waiting for something to become inappropriate? Chances are, bystanders have their attention focused on other things, like the conference at large, or the people they are conversing with.

If a person makes it very vocally clear that they are being victimized, then yes, bystanders should do something. And thats the answer to your question as to "Why is it the responsibility of women to take the stand?"

autarch2• 13 years ago

I agree with most of your points except for #4.

There's nothing inherently wrong with flirting at a conference. Flirting is a very natural type of interaction for people, and asking people to not do it at all doesn't seem realistic.

However, men should not assume that flirting means that a woman is inviting you to touch her or sleep with her. In fact, she may not even be flirting. Men often misinterpret simple friendliness as sexual interest.

Be conservative in what you say and do. At a professional event, it is far better to miss an opportunity for a casual hook up than to be aggressive and make the conference an unwelcoming place for women.

npfmn8• 13 years ago

If women say there is something wrong with flirting at a conference, then there is something wrong with it. It's a professional event.

Why is a professional event even seen as "an opportunity for a casual hook up"?

To say that flirting is "natural" is quite a claim; while it might be prevalent in our culture, that doesn't mean it's natural.

dsr_• 13 years ago

Your primary problem is when you think of "women in tech" as being "sexually interesting people in tech" instead of "people in tech". All the rest follows from that. When you meet somebody at a professional conference, ignore their gender and treat them the way you would want to be treated.

Also, a nice person who is rude to the waiter (or barista, or retail clerk, or...) is not a nice person.

papermashea• 13 years ago

I have had the misfortune of seeing how very deep this sexism goes- it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue (though I will say, it's the most pressing), but also the prejudices women meet in the tech world. It's as if there are two major discussions about women's roles in tech: women are either assumed to be underqualified or over glamorized.

Get more women into tech, and then get over having them there.

coldtea7• 13 years ago

>it's not just sexual harassment that's an issue

How does discern sexual harassment (between adults with no business ties between them) from flirting?

I ask because I've also seen flirting remakers being conceived as "harassement".

That "the place was not appropriate" or "it was uncalled for" is not a proper answer I think. There would be VERY FEW relationships and/or marriages if people never approached other people out of the blue and in non-appropriate places (in a conference for example).

steveklabnik9• 13 years ago

It's pretty simple: if you're not sure, don't do it.

nexxy• 13 years ago

wow, you are clueless.

Approaching someone and engaging in conversation with them out of potential interest in who they are as a person is nowhere near the same thing as making offhanded remarks on their physical appearance without so much as an introduction.

get it together.

flaviusb• 13 years ago

Haha, no. You are conflating two things (tell vs ask - ie unrestricted flirting vs social SYN, SYN ACK, ACK). The former can be good, but has massive externalities when allowed at (for example) tech conferences, or any are where you want a 'safe space', whereas the latter is fairly safe, and is not what is usually under discussion. This is a classic coordination problem, which has been solved by game theory. You see, there are actually places that people go to in order to flirt, where that is the primary (or a specific secondary) purpose; singles bars, mixers, dance clubs - there can even be spaces for this kind of stuff inside of other spaces where it would be otherwise inappropriate, for example 'work mixers', or 'geek mixers' at tech conferences. Unrestricted flirting in those locations does not have serious negative externalities, and so is not harassment.

So, the solution is to seriously restrict flirting at tech conferences as a form of harassment, but allow SYN, SYN ACK, ACK exchanges, and have people who want to flirt go to singles bars or 'geek mixer' events.

Can you understand this?

lisabarone3• 13 years ago

It's not just enough to get women into tech. You have to get them to STAY in tech. Because that's becoming an even bigger problem. We're here. We're vocal. And then we leave because of crappy things that happen to us. It's a lot to ask someone to be put through that time and time again.

oh_sigh11• 13 years ago

It's amazing you know the inner lives and decisions of all, or even a large group of women. Tell me where you get your diving powers.

nacker3• 13 years ago

How about a government mandated quota of females in every industry or company? The EU is introducing this kind of enlightened, progressive approach to gender equality on company boards:

'The Commission wants to see more women represented in the making of economically significant decisions and has proposed a minimum harmonisation measure binding on all listed companies to create a level landscape. By 2020 all European listed companies should have at least 40% of their non-executive directors from the "under-represented gender". The Commission considers this project to be part of the completion of the single market project as well as an initiative to remedy an inequality. The measure is expected to impact upon 5,000 companies from across the Union.'

http://wedlakebell.com/articles-and-comment/2013/02/08/corpo...

gosukiwi• 13 years ago

This post again?

benparsons• 13 years ago

This post until the problem is at least acknowledged, let alone addressed. Took me a long time to realise the problem was real ("it's a meritocracy, everyone is welcome in tech!"), and now I can't stand to look at the comments in threads like this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5279118 without cringing.

lisabarone3• 13 years ago

Yes. Really. It's still happening.

MichelleRobbins2• 13 years ago

When it stops being a problem, it will stop being topical.

oh_sigh11• 13 years ago

Can you name an industry(at least as broad as "tech" field) which has no sexual harassment lawsuits, or exceptionally few?

You can tell stories like the one in the blog about any field. Tech is not special. If there is going to be change, it will have to come from society at large, and not by fiddling with the dials of a specific field.

danso2• 13 years ago

I'm disappointed that this post focuses on an incident of groping. Not because the incident is "not a big deal" or that it's isolated, but because it's the type of incident that nearly everyone can agree is beyond the pale and should never be tolerated by society.

Even sexists.

I think the more prevalent problem is the underlying sexism, the institutional bias, the reluctance to speak up, the fear of being judged "the token" -- the fact that a man can think it's appropriate to put his hand on a woman's knee unsolicited is just a blatant, ugly manifestation of the underlying sexism.

I know this post had a little more nuance, but it's hard to come away from it without the impression of: "Women aren't on speaker panels because they're afraid of getting molested". Maybe that's the case (and if so, we as a society have serious issues)...but there's at least an equal problem of women just not being considered or being searched for. And as that problem persists, then women continue to become such a minority at these conferences that the aforementioned creep feels perfectly comfortable with invading a woman's personal space.

lisabarone3• 13 years ago

I think it's all connected.

There are many reasons you don't see women speaking at tech conferences. Some is because they're passed over as non-members of the boys club. Some is because they don't want to attend and be part of the environment. I've had far worse things happen to be at tech shows - there's one I avoid altogether after being sexually assaulted in a hotel room - but like you said, there's a reason women don't feel comfortable talking about. i don't want to be the "token" harassment case. I don't want to become known for that above anything else I may do. So do I speak up or do I shut up.

That's just as large of an issue as how do I get that creep from putting his hand on knee. Arguably, it's bigger.

danso2• 13 years ago

Undoubtedly it's all connected in a feedback loop. I guess what I'm simply saying is that the problem of unwanted touching "can be solved" (or at least, ostracized into obscurity), and yet the underlying sexism can persist -- and, in one sense, be affirmed ("Hey I'm can't be a sexist, I never would just touch a random woman) -- and cause the same negative impact: the lack of women participation in conferences and in the tech field (or rather, society in general)

coldtea7• 13 years ago

>the fact that a man can think it's appropriate to put his hand on a woman's knee unsolicited is just a blatant, ugly manifestation of the underlying sexism.

Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university.

It's like taking the example of a rapist (which this guy sort of is) and extrapolating it to some general trend about everyone.

stcredzero3• 13 years ago

> Well, let's get real. How many men think that? I've never seen that in ANY company I have ever worked for. Heck, I haven't even see this kind of thing in the university.

The big disadvantage about being a "hyper-minority" -- that is, a minority to the extent that you stick out almost like a celebrity would, is that you attract a lot of attention. A group of people might be largely composed of good people. However, someone who is a member of a "hyper-minority" is going to attract a far-disproportionate amount of attention from the most unsavory 0.5% of the group.

> It's like taking the example of a rapist (which this guy sort of is) and extrapolating it to some general trend about everyone.

I don't think that's a fair or constructive way to put the issue. Most men aren't rapists. However, a very small number are, and they can do a disproportionate amount of damage. This was even truer in days past, when society was more permissive about certain kinds of behaviors, and less scrupulous about avoiding unwanted approaches.

It's not a matter of spreading the guilt through the group. It is a matter of encouraging responsibility, however.

Mz• 13 years ago

Just wondering if you have any thoughts on solving the problem of "institutional bias." It seems to me that specific incidents get focused on because it is a thread to pull so we can start to unravel the whole mess. "Institutional bias" seems like a framing of the problem which makes it harder to find a starting point, not easier. So I am wondering if you have thought about what to do/where to start to solve that.

Thanks.

jrogers65• 13 years ago

In any industry dominated by a given gender, there is prejudice against the opposite gender. People fear what they do not know.

http://www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/rss/1056170/New-calls-end...

jroseattle2• 13 years ago

The characterization of this as an industry issue is a red herring. This is a societal issue; the fact we're in the tech industry is simply a commonality.

RyanMcGreal3• 13 years ago

It's considerably worse - both more prevalent and less acknowledged - in the tech industry than elsewhere.

jroseattle2• 13 years ago

I would expect you have some data that substantiates that assertion?

npfmn8• 13 years ago

It's not a red herring, it's a place to start.

Hairy_Sandwich3• 13 years ago

There is nothing in the article (IMO) that is unique to the tech sector. These complaints could be made of men in general anywhere in any industry or context. Some guy can put a hand on your knee at the home show too, but not a lot of men go to those events (I assume, I wouldn't know since I don't go to them either).

However, there will always be a set of socially retarded people, there will always be horny people, and there will always be people who posses both attributes at the same time. There are a lot of socially awkward people in tech, I don't know what you can do about this problem.

If you have an attractive physique as a woman, and you wear clothes that don't hide or minimize this fact, then men will notice, and some will comment on it, and some will even be inappropriate about it. As a remedy the women should get mad, she should tell them off. However you could even make inappropriate comments punishable by DEATH. I guarantee that not even the death penalty will stop inappropriate comments, or some guy putting a hand on your knee type of stuff. Even if the women wore a burqua, that wouldn't stop it, some guy would find that hot, "hey baby, what's under the burqua?". I don't have the answer, I don't think there is an answer. Possibly when these issues occur the women are reacting politely when they should react angrily so the offender gets the correct feedback often enough to realize that he is the problem.

npfmn8• 13 years ago

"they should react angrily" That might be part of the solution, but isn't it important for us to make a proactive effort to do whatever we can to encourage a professional, non-sexist environment?

You say there will always be horny people, but isn't it our place to make this a taboo?

None of this may be unique to the tech sector, but aren't we a forward-looking industry that isn't afraid of changing the world?

jasonshen• 13 years ago

Your suggestion that "there will always be socially restarted people" perpetuates the idea that things can't improve. Violent crime and overt prejudice to minorities and LGBT folks have gone down over time because it became a big deal. What we just said "there will always be bigots" and then stopped caring, that progress never would have happened.

Change is possible and we should strive to make it happen.

Hairy_Sandwich3• 13 years ago

Well what I was saying is that the women should make it obvious that they don't tolerate this behaviour. So that even somebody who's a little slow socially will get the message. Don't spare their feelings, just get the message across I guess.

oh_sigh11• 13 years ago

I have a hypothesis: When women are represented close to 50% in the military, there will be none of this so-called sexism in other, unrelated sectors

oh_sigh11• 13 years ago

Lechers exist in all fields, even in fields where it is agreed upon by everyone that sexism does not exist, or is at least at some level lower than general sexism in society as a whole.

Feel free to call them out, but don't impugn the insanely broad field of "tech" because of some creeps.

stevenameyer• 13 years ago

The number of comments on this thread stating sexism exists in all areas and seemly dismiss this as an issue that needs to be addressed in our industry is very surprising to me.

Just because the problem is not specific to the tech industry doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to solve it. If women feel uncomfortable working or contributing to the industry because of their gender then we are missing out on possible contributions from a massive section of the population.

Will cases of sexism always exist? Probably, their will always be a bad apple or two. But we need to work to make these these cases the exception to how the industry works. We need people to feel safe contributing regardless of who they are. If you have something to contribute you should be able to, that is one of the things I personally love about this industry. Just because we can never fully solve a problem doesn't mean we shouldn't try to minimize it.

onemorepassword• 13 years ago

It's not that it shouldn't be addressed in our industry, but it shouldn't be addressed as "sexism in tech", because that is an entirely separate issue.

The kind of sexism that is described here occurs just as much in industries that are 50% women. It's not the cause of the under-representation of women in tech, and addressing it is unlikely to solve that issue.

On the one hand, the industry should make an additional effort to address the general social sexism on order to not further alienate women, but the suggestion that tech is more sexist than other areas is blatantly false, and leads to a automatic defensive response because it suggests a certain causality.

It is simply not very constructive to conflate the two issues, no matter how closely related they are. Sexism in general is too sensitive an issue for that, and not just for women.

Sexism In Tech: We’re Not Making It Up

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