Belgium watchdogs: Apple is 'deaf to demands' over consumer rights

http://www.zdnet.com/belgium-watchdogs-apple-is-deaf-to-demands-over-consumer-rights-7000009816/

by aynlaplant • 14 years ago

34 29 14 years ago

rimantas• 14 years ago

Doesn't AppleCare cover a bit more than simple warranty?

It does indeed, it gets you additional support, coverage for repairs arising after delivery and so on. Apple even has a handy chart: http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

sdoering• 14 years ago

Well for example, the first point ("Defects arising after customer takes delivery") is not quite right.

At least in Germany, if the defect is not the fault of the consumer (dropped tablet/iphone), producer has to repair. And that up to two years.

So Apple is intentionally misleading consumers here, to trick them, to buy this care-product.

But on the other hand - it is a tax on peoples stupidity. If you do not know your basic rights as a consumer, my empathy for you being tricked into such a deal is actually on the same level as my sympathy for apple, attempting such a trick: Next to zero.

rickmb2• 14 years ago

That chart is utterly misleading. There is no such thing as an EU-wide law. Most EU countries have much more extensive consumer protection.

The only real difference is that with AppleCare you can contact Apple directly instead of the seller. But as far as the rest is concerned, in most EU countries you have better warranty by law than what Apple tries to peddle as "service".

Aardwolf• 14 years ago

I know some guy who had to live a week without his Apple laptop after the power supply broke. He went to the store immediately, then they kept his laptop for a week.

Meanwhile, I had a new component of my own built desktop PC broken, went with it to the store and said it didn't work, and they just took it and immediately gave me a new one without any questions asked or even checking the faulty one. Then I also asked if I could buy a PC speaker to hear the motherboard beeps, and they gave a tiny speaker with two wires, for free!

Both of this was in Belgium. So yes, something is wrong with Apple's warranty in Belgium, compared to other shops.

huxley• 14 years ago

Do you mean the power connector or something internal, rather than power supply? Because the power supply on a Macbook is an external AC adapter, no reason at all for the Macbook to be kept.

vetinari• 14 years ago

In Powerbook era, the connector on the PSU cable had no stress reliever. As a result, the cable often broke (I went through three of them, until I got third party PSU with proper cable).

The thing is, that if you claim warranty on Apple product in Europe, they will take it and you have to wait until mothership ships replacement part. The guy the OP mentions might not turn in the whole computer, but what good it makes when your battery is empty and you don't have another PSU.

In related experience, I once had harddrive failure in Powerbook. I had to wait for three weeks, until replacement came, if I wanted to have it serviced under warranty. Or outright buy the replacement part and pay for the service.

Of course, I'm no longer Apple customer.

bradleyland• 14 years ago

Comparing a laptop to a self-built desktop PC isn't exactly a fair comparison. Try walking in to your local PC hardware shop with any PC laptop suffering from a bad power distribution board (an internal component). They're unlikely to have one on hand.

Samuel_Michon2• 14 years ago

"He went to the store"

In which ‘the store’ is an Apple Product Reseller (not owned by Apple). There are no Apple Retail Stores (stores owned by Apple) in Belgium yet [0] (all surrounding countries but Luxembourg have them, though).

Apple Retail Stores are renowned for their excellent, lenient customer service. APRs, not so much. Third party retailers receive minimal discounts on Apple products, which makes it hard for them to give away freebies or give consumers the benefit of the doubt [1]. Now, that doesn't excuse them, but it might explain the difference in customer experience.

"Apple extends only a tiny wholesale discount on its Macs and iPads to your retailer of choice. The actual numbers are a closely guarded secret, protected by confidentiality agreements between Cupertino and its resellers, but the difference probably amounts to only a few percentage points off the official price that you find at Apple’s own stores. With such a narrow gap to tinker with, most retailers can’t offer big discounts and still hope to turn a profit." [1]

[0] http://www.apple.com/retail/storelist/

[1] http://www.macworld.com/article/2024257/how-apple-sets-its-p...

megablast2• 14 years ago

I had a similar problem. My laptop would not startup, so I bought a new laptop from them. Then my old one startup up again (it need to be left on for 4 hours), and I returned the new one for free. YOu have 15 days free use from it.

beedogs• 14 years ago

This is the same thing they got punished for in Italy, too. In fact, Italy has fined them twice for this crap.

http://gigaom.com/2012/12/21/italy-fines-apple-again-over-ap...

bitcartel• 14 years ago

I think if the Belgian consumer group is successful in it's case, Apple will have to seriously consider complying with EU law, or face one lawsuit after another in each member state. It would be a public relations nightmare.

Bvalmont• 14 years ago

It's a good thing they are looking into this.

I always figured that these are not "official" stores thus having limited stock and resupply makes them willing to fight consumers over every small repair, replacement and warranty issue.

When these Apple Stores are charging money for repairs that should have been under warranty or pushing their Apple Care products by stating you only have 1 year warranty they are basically taking advantage of uneducated consumers.

Apple stores in Belgium are an extremely negative experience to say the least, I hope this will change eventually.

Until then you should buy your Apple products through the online apple store, no problems there. ( if you happen to be Belgian )

Luc• 14 years ago

> Apple stores in Belgium are an extremely negative experience to say the least, I hope this will change eventually.

There are no Apple stores in Belgium yet, only resellers working on scary thin margins. They've been consolidating in preparation for the arrival of Apple's own stores, but I doubt it will be enough for them to last very much longer.

rickmb2• 14 years ago

Although they are absolutely right, it should also be said that Apple is far from unique. Many electronics shops and manufactures have warranty policies and try to sell extra warranty whilst EU consumer laws already mandate minimal warranty standards. As a consumer you almost always have to explicitly assert your rights or you'll get screwed.

Apple has just made itself a high profile target with it's AppleCare Protection Plan, and it doesn't help that Apple is being systematically uncooperative when consumers claim their warranty rights.

vacri2• 14 years ago

It doesn't help either that Apple markets itself as premium quality hardware rather than cheap junk. If you were buying cheap chinese knock-offs, you wouldn't gain much sympathy when they didn't honour the two-year minimum, but when you buy 'the premium brand', it's a different story.

smashu• 14 years ago

"within the European Union, two years' warranty must be provided for products free of charge"

There is no such thing, the law refers to something else. Check this: http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/

vacri2• 14 years ago

There is some such thing - that page lists an EU-mandated free warranty period of two years for some defects.

drucken• 14 years ago

vacri is correct.

However, there is more than sufficient misleading ambiguity on that page which contradicts EU law (and likely EU Member State consumer or contract law).

EU law [1] states that a minimum period of 6 months is always available wherein defects that arise after delivery are assumed to have existed at or before delivery unless proven otherwise.

EU law provides for a Member State optional notification obligation on consumers that they have to inform the seller of a fault within 2 months. The UK has chosen not to exercise this notification. Belgium, for example, allows for contracts to specify the existence, length of the notification period (not less than 2 months) and consequences of lack of notification [2].

Similarly, in the case of the UK, "claim period" is ambiguous because under UK Sale of Goods Act 1979, consumers have 6 years to take a claim to court for faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (5 years in Scotland) [3].

[1] http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...

[2] http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/guarantees/...

[3] http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-goods/underst...

fusiongyro• 14 years ago

I do hope they eventually turn their attention to Google's complete opacity. I still find it absurd that it is impossible to call Google about a problem with nearly any of their services.

tluyben24• 14 years ago

I came here to say this; it's completely weird that Google escapes this; even if you make money for them or pay for their services. Probably because the 'buy X' => 'support X' is not as clear with Google, but their practices are somewhat weird. I had good and bad experiences with adwords, adsense, apps, gmail, analytics and youtube. Mostly bad and all have in common that you actually cannot contact someone who will help you. Vague answers why you have been shot down and no-one seems to care unless they have been affected themselves.

Seems worse than Apple to me, at least I can walk into a shop and just get an answer or get annoyed until they fix it (and they do, no complaints here).

tluyben24• 14 years ago

Offtopic; just curious if anyone knows.

Edit: apparently I wrote some unreadable stuff here :) So simple rewrite:

- people accidentally drop liquid (bottle of water, coke, coffee, tea) on their macbooks

- people bring the laptop to Apple (or official partners)

- Apple says (rightfully so) that it's not covered by their warranty

- Apple says (in all cases, over 10 i've seen) that the motherboard is gone and needs replacement, which costs E800-E1200 depending on your Macbook

- after repair Apple (partners) refuses to return the broken motherboard to the paying client

Now, i'm saying that in the cases people found it too expensive and didn't have the macbook repaired (by Apple) that the motherboard was not broken at all and fixable within a few hours by themselves or friends (like me).

So my question: why do they refuse to return the old, broken motherboard to someone who owns the macbook and is paying to have it fixed?

megablast2• 14 years ago

I have no idea what you just said.

I think you are saying that in water damaged macbooks, you have to pay apple, and apple get to keep the mobo? They probably recycle them safely.

Maybe you are suggesting they reuse the parts, but I find that highly unlikely.

tluyben24• 14 years ago

I'm asking why they refuse to return the broken motherboards; they belong to the people having the laptop repaired.

Samuel_Michon2• 14 years ago

Dear Tycho, I'm well versed in English and Dutch, but I have no clue what you're trying to say.

As for dropping quantities of liquid on your Mac: don't do it, or at least get yourself some proper computer insurance. Apple's standard warranty doesn't cover accidents, AppleCare doesn't cover them either. If you bring your water damaged computer to an Apple Store (try Amsterdam), they might take pity on you and replace your computer on the spot, but they're in no way obligated to do so.

tluyben24• 14 years ago

I guess I shouldn't write HN comments and have a meeting at the same time :) Rewrote it; hope it's clearer now. I'm just curious if anyone saw this behavior.

An official Apple partner repair shop close to Utrecht actually repaired my macbook which got over drenched because of a cat jumping in a bucket accident :) No questions asked and within the Apple care warranty, but they too refused to return the motherboard upon request.

Belgium watchdogs: Apple is 'deaf to demands' over consumer rights

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