The Code Of Conduct

http://jessenoller.com/blog/2012/12/7/the-code-of-conduct

by craigkerstiens • 14 years ago

47 48 14 years ago

fleitz• 14 years ago

Codes of Conduct are always good, zero-tolerance polices on the other hand are usually a bit extreme.

What starts out as well intentioned zero-tolerance policy usually ends up in absurdity. Like zero-tolerance policies in schools that started as banning weapons and now prevent students from bringing meals that need to be eaten with knife and fork. Hopefully they are able to keep the zero-tolerance policy to mean what everyone thinks it means now.

jnoller3• 14 years ago

I've got two kids in school. I know the pain of the inane zero tolerance policies such as those. However, harassment in any form, when corroborated, is just unacceptable.

eikenberry• 14 years ago

> "harassment in any form"

This is the crux of the main problem with zero tolerance stances. That "in any form" gets interpreted in the widest possible way possible beyond the point of absurdity. This is because it is an absolute stance in a realm which is inherently subjective and relative to the various points of view involved.

> "when corroborated"

I think this helps with this a bit, as it requires at least one (hopefully more) other subjective view on whether it was harassment or not. Hopefully it will be enough.

unalone8• 14 years ago

Codes of Conduct, I think, are good for some things, like actual conduct, and bad for other things, like assuaging people's irrational fears of possible violence. Which is what school policies are, basically.

tomjen35• 14 years ago

I wonder if this kind of thing would stand up in court? Is it even legal to expulse people with no refund when the guidelines are vague?

Personally I don't go to conferences for the same reasons I don't go to concerts -- too expensive when video is much better -- but I would be pissed if they threw me out for not measuring up to the arbitrary standards of some random enforcer of political correctness or for (horror) talking to girls in an elevator.

briancurtin2• 14 years ago

> I would be pissed if they threw me out ...<snip>... for (horror) talking to girls in an elevator.

I would be pissed if that happened to me too. Good thing that's not even remotely close to what any of this is even about.

tomjen35• 14 years ago

Never heard of elevator gate?

Seriously, guide lines used to be a good idea but they can only work when everybody agrees (or there is some written record) of what exactly sexual harrasment is.

And 'unwanted' sexual advances? How the hell can you know if the girl wants to talk to you, without talking to her? Heck if I was a girl who got asked out 50 times a day for coffee it would properly be annoying too -- does that make it harressment?

I mean, sure you treaten somebody that is one thing, but only because we have a pretty good societal standard for what is treatening -- yelling at people is, being black in an elevator is not.

jnoller3• 14 years ago

Yes, it is legal. It's a private event, with written guidelines. Also, what would you prefer; no written guidelines with me as chair able to do whatever I wanted to whoever I wanted to with no oversight. With no written rules, staff would be largely free to kick you out of a private event for say, wearing creepy vibram five finger shoes.

(which I do wear)

tomjen35• 14 years ago

A specific list of what is sexual harresment and what is asking girls out for coffee.

Yes I know the difference, but I want to be sure the conference chair does.

I have no interest in becoming a monk and I like girls with a brain -- which place would be better than a technical conference (I believe the technical term is 'networking')?

theorique4• 14 years ago

In general, there is an assumption that the organizers of events are good-faith people who want things to go smoothly, not tyrants who want to use their power to kick people out for no reason.

tomjen35• 14 years ago

hmm, then the same assumption should be made for conference attendees.

But somehow, it is not. I wonder how accurate the assumption of good will is for the organizers?

unalone8• 14 years ago

Oof, you're getting downvoted right from the get-go. I disagree with your stance, but better to talk about this than to just blindly vote you into oblivion.

First, yes, it's legal to throw people out of a private event for any reason you'd like. They can be mad at you for your vagueness, but being vague isn't a crime. ("Thank god!" say a thousand programmers and designers who've been forced to make presentations or give speeches – I kid, I kid.)

Second, your little "for (horror) talking to girls in an elevator" struck me as a snotty little dig at a serious issue. I know that you're most likely taking a shot at the Rebecca Watson affair [http://www.metafilter.com/105214/the-existence-of-greater-cr...], but some users might not, and your snideless passes over the complications involved in that incident.

Would you say that men, all men, take it for granted that they know how women feel about possible male aggression in private situations, especially late at night? That they know women have legitimate reasons to be worried about strange men who confront them, even in a seemingly harmless manner, in private situations? Would you say that women have a right to speak about their feelings on this topic, explain why they feel the way that they feel, or even just vent about how bothered they get by those situations?

Rebecca Watson didn't get anybody "thrown out" of the World Atheist Convention, she discussed an incident that happened there, and some people got really bothered that she considered it an incident. It was a complete flustercuck, not because talking to a woman on an elevator is HORRIBLE RAMPANT MISOGYNY, but because there are reasons why Watson found the gesture creepy, and there were many man – from your post, you included – who simply refused to admit that Watson had any legitimate point whatsoever.

Which is why, by the way, these codes of conduct are necessary. It's not necessarily that you would do something horribly wrong or alienating or offensive, but if something as simple as "being hit on at 4am by a strange man" is still sneered at as a legitimate concern, then probably some people think they're entitled to far grosser and more outlandish actions as well. And that means that either women might be actively harassed (possibly even assaulted), or they'll feel like they're not actually a part of the group, and then they'll leave, and the community will be immeasurably diminished for their leaving.

Again, the downvoters were wrong to knock you down – your opinion was relevant to the discussion and stated concisely – but your attitude here is exactly the problem which codes of conduct will attempt to enforce. I doubt anybody will miss your presence at the conferences, or at those expensive concerts for that matter. Enjoy trying to mosh in your own living room. :-P

tomjen35• 14 years ago

No you are right, I cannot fanthom that anybody could feel threatened by a geek who talks to her in an elevator, no matter the time.

Stranger rape (as opposed to date rape) is so extreemly rare that it makes the news when it does happen -- and it will almost certainly not happen in a conference elevator. Especially when there is a lot of males around -- who are glamoring for a chance to be the hero.

johngalt2• 14 years ago

Thank you for the discussion. I disagree with your stance as well.

Why is female->male fear different than other kinds of irrational fear? If we substituted white->black in your comment would you still support it? What makes it different?

"Would you say that black people, take it for granted that they know how whites feel about possible black aggression in private situations, especially late at night? That they know whites have legitimate reasons to be worried about strange blacks who confront them, even in a seemingly harmless manner, in private situations? Would you say that whites have a right to speak about their feelings on this topic, explain why they feel the way that they feel, or even just vent about how bothered they get by those situations?"

Also I'd like to point out that you make the assumption that only men can run afoul of a code of conduct and only women can be protected by it. Not convincing that these standards will be fairly applied.

hackygolucky• 14 years ago

I thought the reason these guidelines are set is so that everyone is protected--attendees feel comfortable, and organizers don't have to feel like they're on their own with making decisions on things that are making everyone(potentially) uncomfortable. Conference organizers certainly don't enjoy confrontation.

Also, thanks for the condescension behind the girl-elevator scenario. That really strengthens the argument. Ladies don't report conversations in an elevator. They report feeling unsafe.

sophacles5• 14 years ago

Thank you for not attending conferences. For the record, should you change your mind, you are strictly unwelcome at anything where I have a say in the attendance.

The number of women who experience some form of rape or sexual assault is absurdly high (I believe it is 1 in 6). Even if we make the (completely unrealistic an hyperbolic) assumption that that is off by an order of magnitude. That is 1 in 60. It means that at least 2 women in the room I'm sitting in have been assaulted. Crazy.

That means that women have a pretty reasonable case to be wary. So they are bit more sensitive to certain situations, like being enclosed in a box with a stranger. How dare they be concerned for their safety right? Nope. If you have a problem with concern for personal safety, do the world a favor and demonstrate how awesome not being afraid is and stand on busy train tracks for a few hours.

So now we have rules by which a woman can report that she felt uncomfortable or concerned. Fortunately those rules also include the chance for the accused to defend himself. OK cool. If it was a situation that was a mistake, reasonable people will say "this is a mistake, stay away from the woman, she is OK with this, but if you try to contact her for the rest of the event, we'll ask you to leave". Everyone moves on - seriously it isn't even unfair, who wants to hang around someone who is uncomfortable with them anyway?

So yes, what this does is open the door for some really unbalanced person to report harassment in a false way. Fortunately this is extremely uncommon. Probably less common than people actually being creepers. But say it does happen. Someone gets kicked out for nothing. OK. That really sucks, and potentially has further consequences of a social sort for the person removed. But you know what - if someone wanted to falsely accuse a person of harassment, the existence of a policy is not going to stop them, they will still do so loudly and unfairly. That person still may be asked to leave, even without the policy - organizers have that power.

So having the policy costs what? Nothing to the hypotheical and unlikely falsely accused or hyperbolically accused person. What does it profit? Peace of mind that actual creepers will be dealt with.

So, with that in mind - the only reasonable conclusion is that the people who are terrified of a code of conduct policy are the ones who are creepers. This is why I've banned you permanently from anything I can. You must be a creeper or at least proponent for creepers. Neither ar things I find acceptable.

johngalt2• 14 years ago

GP states that he avoids conferences because of the possibility of being pilloried over something minor. Then you immediately prove his point...

edit: You went on an angry rant and banned someone for life (if it were in your power) over a comment that is in no way harassing or intimidating. Can you see that this isn't an appropriate response?

Torgo• 14 years ago

"people who are terrified of a code of conduct policy are the ones who are creepers."

Just like anybody concerned about privacy is a crook hiding something, right? Or maybe they're afraid of getting swept up in an in-progress moral panic.

smoyer• 14 years ago

"D stands for Diversity"

It's a shame that has to even be stated ... the articles we've been seeing are related to technical events. How about we attempt to show each other a modicum of respect and argue the technical points without getting personal? And what place is there for harassment in polite society? My gramma often noted that it doesn't cost you anything to be polite or friendly.

steveklabnik• 14 years ago

Thank you for this, Jesse, if you're reading. Python people embarrass us Rubyists yet again. ;)

jnoller3• 14 years ago

Ha. You're welcome.

sophacles5• 14 years ago

Seriously Kudos. It makes me sad that you had to put that much effort into an explanation of something this straight forward, but the result is a very nice, well-reasoned argument that is hard to argue with.

jfc• 14 years ago

I'm glad to see this Code of Conduct. Seems to me that most men are unaware of what women endure in terms of harassment, both from people they know and from strangers.

Putting everyone on notice that such behavior won't be tolerated is a big step in the right direction.

The Code Of Conduct

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