Can I Buy Your KV Cache?

https://arxiv.org/abs/2606.13361

by MediaSquirrel • 1 month ago

36 28 1 month ago

arxiv.org

root-parent• 1 month ago

Lambda computing for prompts?

sghiassy• 1 month ago

A truly global singleton

lumost2• 1 month ago

The KV cache is order dependent and dependent on the context of tokens which exist before the KV cache.

There are some transformation approaches to re-use the kv cache across inferences, but none are in wide use due to accuracy concerns following the transformation.

dgellow2• 1 month ago

Just curious, do you have links to read more about transformations or other techniques for KV cache reuse?

evrydayhustling• 1 month ago

All major model providers offer prefix caching, which is this.

Eridrus• 1 month ago

The paper has a section on "Reusing precomputed KV across queries" which talks about how other papers have tried to address this problem, but yeah, this paper adds nothing on its own besides a catchy title.

TZubiri• 1 month ago

Absolute slop paper. Replace document with text and you'll get it.

"People are asking the same questions and an answer is generated every time, what if we could like cache the questions and their answers..."

Sounds like someone was using chatgpt to understand how chatgpt works and then asked it to generate a paper based on his proposal to improve it.

amelius• 1 month ago

At least it wasn't a patent.

xg152• 1 month ago

Isn't it also, most fundamentally, dependent on the model weights?

My understanding was that what the KV cache stores is nothing else than the "activations" of the W_k and W_v matrices of an attention module for a given input sequence.

So I don't quite understand how this is supposed to work:

Let a publisher precompute a document's KV cache, and let every other agent buy the right to load it and skip prefill.

Should a publisher precompute the cache for every popular model that is out there?

xg152• 1 month ago

...not to mention, which KV cache? Every attention module has its own, and how many attention modules there are, what inputs they get, how many internal features and attention heads they have, etc, all depends on the architecture of the specific model.

tonetegeatinst• 1 month ago

Does anyone have a good recommendation for explaining or as a primer on KV cache?

plutomeetsyou• 1 month ago

convert this question to KV cache and give it to your agent

wren69913• 1 month ago

If you want the actual maths instead of handwaving, I recommend: https://arxiv.org/abs/2207.09238

For something gentler, 3Blue1Brown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMlx5fFNoYc (this is part of a series)

kolinko2• 1 month ago

just read up on how transformers and attention works, and kvq mechanism in attention

mistercow2• 1 month ago

Then the part that matters: where the KV lives

When your abstract was clearly generated by an LLM and not curated to at least make it sound human, it does not make me want to read your paper.

numeri• 1 month ago

especially because this is the most painfully glaring flaw in their plan. Their solution is for an inference provider to... store the KV cache (which they can compute!) on-premise, on their own disks, but pay some third party for it?

mistercow2• 1 month ago

Well, it’s one flaw. I would argue that the bigger flaw, which you alluded to, is that the cost of computing the cache yourself maxes out in the single digit dollars even very large frontier models, and that’s a one-time cost. Even if you imagine all the logistics are free and all the transfers are instant, what are we even talking about here from an economic perspective?

KV caching is a super interesting engineering space, especially when you’re talking about local models where compute and memory bandwidth are highly constrained and you’re trying to trim fractions of a second everywhere you can by flipping between different ICL prefixes. But selling caches for specific documents just makes no sense at all.

TuringNYC• 1 month ago

Seems Cloudflare is now doing this for scraping, so makes sense to continue down the pipeline!

refulgentis• 1 month ago

This paper doesn't make any sense - for background, I've maintained an AI client that's cross-platform, cross-provider, and integrates llama.cpp since 2022. I don't know why they think "agents" don't share prefill work - paid providers cache on the prefill text, llama.cpp, same, and I specifically hooked up llama.cpp so it can do subsets as well. i.e. all the agents would reuse the cache

It reads like it started from an underspecification of "agents" x a strain of pop-wisdom about "KV cache" that I've seen enter mainstream discourse over the past 3 months that is Not Even Wrong, then, they solved a non-existent problem.

EDIT: based on the rest of comments either requesting a primer on terms, or, pointing out it makes errors in even more obvious ways, flagging.

christianqchung• 1 month ago

I don't think Luoyuan Zhang is necessarily doing this, but I'm pretty sure lots of people are using arxiv as a glorified blog and hoping no one notices.

wren69913• 1 month ago

Prefix caching is already widely deployed by all providers, right? llama.cpp does it. vLLM does it. I'm sure everyone hosting LLMs for a living does it. This paper seems to focus entirely on prefixes (i.e. the prefilled content is rooted at 0). This is... nothing.

The referenced CacheBlend paper (https://arxiv.org/pdf/2405.16444) which tries to stitch together multiple independent prefills looks more interesting and is new to me. The problem it's trying to solve is:

* KV projections for a given token at a given layer are a function of the residual at that layer,

* which is a function of the attention contribution of the previous layer,

* which is a (nonlinear) function of all earlier tokens' KV values at the previous layer.

This is what stops you from just pasting KV blocks together. Intuitively it might feel like you could do the equivalent of an MPEG deblocking filter to fix up the edges, but there's no guarantee the tokens that need fixing up are at the beginning of the KV block, so they have to be sneaky about it.

Unfortunately while that paper is quite verbose it's lacking in detail in the most important part: how they perform the approximate KV recomputation. It looks like the rough idea is that they fully recompute the KV for the first layer, and use the deviation between the recompute and the original cached KV as a heuristic for how important it is to recompute the full KV values (i.e. all remaining layers) for that token. They use that to derive a mask for the tokens which most strongly attend to the earlier context, then do a sparse update of those tokens.

What's still unclear is how this actually ends up being a performance win, given that the sparse update for each token still requires the exact KV for all the prior tokens in order to actually arrive at the correct value. It just kind of recurses the problem instead of fixing it. Maybe they just use the precomputed KV for the other tokens as input, and live with the approximation?

I think this is already somewhat pragmatically solved: just don't pull huge documents into context. Give the LLM tools to search them and retrieve the fragments that are actually relevant.

dannyw• 1 month ago

Yeah, I'm really not sure what the point of this paper is. Every non-toy environment does prefix caching.

entrope• 1 month ago

Yes, but presumably the authors are suggesting broader application than just caching a system prompt.

The paper's approach should work well if (a) you can calculate KV(A || B) as a function of KV(A) and KV(B) independently, (b) you can identify which documents A1, A2, A3, ... are used commonly enough to be worth caching, and (c) it is cheaper to buy and sell KV(A) on a market than to compute KV(A) when it is needed. Given the size of KV(A) I am not sure that (c) will become true even if people solve the open research problem represented by (a) and accept the state-of-the-art trade-offs known for (b).

Can I Buy Your KV Cache?

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