Is College Working?

http://blogs.harvardbusiness.org/hbreditors/2009/01/what_is_the_future_of_the_work.html

by peter123 • 17 years ago

47 66 17 years ago

blogs.harvardbusiness.org

revelude• 17 years ago

Is Working College?

ryanwaggoner• 17 years ago

Surprising and encouraging to see this kind of critical questioning coming from Harvard, even if it just a blog.

madmanslitany• 17 years ago

I don't know, but I think this is really just another iteration of the debate over how much college should be vocational training and how much it should be devoted towards building minds. My greatest regret towards the way I approached some of my college course selections was to worry too much about how useful it would be to my career/how it would affect my GPA, since I needed to make sure my resume was competitive enough to get a job. I should have taken more classes that were just challenging and interesting for their own sake.

Then again, I got, and at least for now, am still holding a job, so, hindsight 20/20, neh?

wheels4• 17 years ago

For reference, the other iterations, in other sectors of the business news:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=275258 (Wall Street Journal)

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=115158 (Financial Times)

angstrom• 17 years ago

And for less serious satire with nuggets of truth:

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/penn-and-teller-bullshit-c...

fhars2• 17 years ago

Does the US even have a system for vocational training? Over here in germany we have this system where you go to a university if you want an academic education, but if you want vocational training you go to a company and then get an accredited vocational degree after two or three years where you work at your company like 80% of the time and visit a specialized public school for the rest of the time. So if I want to be a computer scientist, I go to the university, but if I want to be a carpenter or network admin, I just get a vocational degree in carpentry or network administration. The system has some problims with things like adapting to change, but still seems better than a college or nothing approach.

RK3• 17 years ago

The US has different levels of degrees. Most of the colleges and universities that you hear about offer bachelors degrees as the first degree (generally a four year degree). Other colleges, especially so-called community and junior colleges will offer 2 year associates degrees in more vocational subjects such as nursing. And then there are other purely vocational schools that offer training that lasts less than a year (usually for-profit schools).

One of the biggest differences between the US and German system is that almost all American students attend the same type of high school, which theoretically should prepare you to go to a university and the curricula are usually general. Also it's important to know that the US system is mostly controlled on the local level, rather than the federal level for public schools, so a school in one city can be very different than a school in another city or state.

netcan3• 17 years ago

Well I guess if anything it's time to stop viewing college as an inevitably great investment. If you feel that an English major college degree would be an enriching experience, then treat it as such, not as an investment.

From this vantage point it's comparable to taking a year off to travel (except 4X longer) or taking a couple of years off to volunteer. The question then becomes, can I afford it?

An interesting excercise is thinking about creative alternatives with similar costs. Say a parent was willing to give their 17-18 yr old child 100k in capital (maybe also help getting financed) + a 4 year stipend to start a business. Every cent must be reinvested. I'm not saying go start Microsoft. Maybe buy an ice cream franchise, mobile dog wash or double up & spring for an existing small business. Would they emerge 'more likely to succeed' at 22 then they would have otherwise?

wheels4• 17 years ago

All of these things seem to focus on skills. For better or worse, college is one of the rites of passage to being part of the economic elite – doubly so at institutions like Harvard – membership in which tends to be a better predictor of weath than practical skills. That's why it's really seen as an investment; for most degrees awarded it's been poor vocational training for a long time.

gasull• 17 years ago

Mostly because of:

- The rolodex factor.

- The fact that people that go to Harvard are already smart, and they would be successful anyway.

netcan3• 17 years ago

What this post is arguing is that a Harvard english degree is not useful to that end. If you reject this claim then mine makes no sense either. I was writing in the context that college does not improve job prospects.

helveticaman3• 17 years ago

I have to say I have no idea how people decide to major in English. At my school they have it made and they just fuck it up so badly! They're this close to moving up in wealth and they decide to study literature...ouch.

unalone4• 17 years ago

Because literature's fascinating? I gave up an English major for something more tech-related, because I read and analyze on my own - I don't need college for that - but still, if I had a choice between a billion dollars and acute understanding of every line of Finnegans Wake, I'd take the latter.

lionhearted2• 17 years ago

I guess I'm lucky - I absolutely, completely, totally get off on business. I reckon business is defined as "problem solving to create value, and get some of the value you created". I was always into problem solving, Chess, figuring out at age 4 how to push a chair from the dining room into the kitchen to get the Teddy Grahams cookies my parents hid in the top cupboard from me, etc. Learning formal business skills should be about then learning how to refine your problem solving skills, and how to get some of the value you created in the way of money or whatever else suits you.

I don't dig on standard MBA-style fancy-lexicon-of-big-words-business despite undergraduate work in business/project management, and all the wealthiest people I know are dropouts or never attended. But for me, the making money thing is about problem solving, and then getting some of the value you created (which is just another, specific kind of problem solving). Means I can do love and money at the same time.

fuzzmeister• 17 years ago

Another great thing about life: a billion dollars couldn't buy you an acute understanding of every line of Finnegans Wake.

helveticaman3• 17 years ago

> Because literature's fascinating?

Yes, that's a good reason to get a literature major. But if you paid in blood to go to a top-tier school that doesn't seem all that much better at teaching literature than a lot of other reasonably good schools, and are paying huge sums to do it, and expect excellent job prospects, then you may be making a mistake. Sounds like this isn't your case. But I get the impression this is pretty common.

What shocks me is meeting people who seem intensely focused on the rat race and appear to want to take on the world, but then get into Yale or whatever and decide to study something that is not exactly conductive to world domination. Then they complain. This...makes my brain hurt. I totally respect your choice regarding Finnegans Wake and the billion dollars. But surely the philistine who preferred the billion would not be better off with the English major. And surely he has no right to be surprised when he has trouble getting jobs as good as those of his engineering peers.

helveticaman3• 17 years ago

Sorry for this. It was unnecessary vitriol.

electromagnetic2• 17 years ago

I think the biggest thing college and university do is force people to do work who likely never did any work in their life.

I understand the premise of college, however except for certain highly specialized or certified jobs I don't really see the value for money in it. I see the value of going to law school to get a law degree and help in passing the bar, but I don't see the value in taking English if you plan to get a career out of it... unless perhaps you desire to teach English.

I mean I'm working to become a novelist, and the best advice I ever saw was to find something that interests you and then write about it. I mean all my favorite writers come from such bizarre fields like a ESA scientists, Cops, Soldiers, Forensic Investigators, Physicists, Economists, Mathematicians, etc. Not a single one (that I'm aware of) even touched English, yet all are full time writers.

I mean a perfect example of this is Cory Doctorow. He dropped out of four universities, became an electronics right activist and worked for the EFF before quitting and becoming a full-time writer. No degree in english, no creative writing in university.

IMO I see this happening in IT. The classic path to money was joining the economic elite, however 2/3 of the biggest names in IT never graduated university. Dell dropped out of University of Texas; Jobs I believe dropped out of Reed College and only Gates actually graduated, however from what I remember his path through Higher Education wasn't typical of the economic elite as he got fascinated by computers and did his own thing instead of what his parents planned for him.

vlad• 17 years ago

Gates did not graduate, he got an honorary law degree.

Wozniak went back to finish his degree, and Ballmer did not join Microsoft until after he finished his.

electromagnetic2• 17 years ago

Oh I didn't know that, I just read he had a law degree... I guess I assumed wrong.

Dilpil• 17 years ago

People love to point out how Gates never graduated, but his Harvard experience was pretty instrumental in him starting Microsoft.

jyothi2• 17 years ago

A BA in creative writing. That could be of tremendous help to lot of businesses worldwide.

English is the international business language but unfortunately at least two-thirds of the world struggles to communicate correctly. Just as US outsourced mundane work in operations and computing, US & UK can support businesses elsewhere with their spoken language at home. There is a huge opportunity here.

tokenadult4• 17 years ago

Some people with an English literature or English writing degree are effective teachers of English as a second language, but many are not. If I were hiring second-language teachers of English in an overseas country (as I have had some occasion to do in previous foreign residence), I would look for someone who was a native speaker of English, yes, but preferably someone who majored IN SOME OTHER LANGUAGE so that I know the would-be teacher understands the task of a language learner.

There are also masters-level professional programs in teaching English as a second language, which are usually quite well designed.

SapphireSun• 17 years ago

No question. In my personal experience, most engineers are TERRIBLE at writing, whereas whereas science majors are much better. English majors I've seen less of. From what I have seen, they tend to write well, but mostly about pointless things.

Creative writing.... Now that would be something. I haven't actually read anything from these magical fairy people, but someone writing well about new and creative ideas would be amazing!

RK3• 17 years ago

One of my college friends has an MA in creative writing and a PhD in physics. So send all your work his way :)

fhars2• 17 years ago

But there is a downside, too. I have read statements from the field of high energy physics that everybody understands everybody else except the native english speakers because they tend to use the whole english language and not just the globally comprehensible subset. So hiring a creative writing major to do your international correspondence might be the wrong choice, you want someone who predictably writes simple english .

jacoblyles• 17 years ago

That's an interesting thought. I take a lot of pride in making my papers flow as "naturally" as possible. I never thought that by doing so, I might be making them harder for a non-native speaker to read.

yters3• 17 years ago

Time to bring back Latin! Then everyone'll be equally confused.

jyothi2• 17 years ago

Interesting point on the "globally comprehensible subset". I agree with you completely for international correspondence.

What I had in mind was more of messages and docs required for a product itself.

I had a personal experience building this quite successful app iRead on facebook and I would most always mess up the grammar or the tone in the news feed, which would then go through repeated corrections from people in the US.

People who have formally studied creative writing with English being their mother tongue would be able to message better.

vitaminj• 17 years ago

Woodrow Wilson was basically arguing the same point in 1909:

“We want one class of persons to have a liberal education. We want another class of persons, a very much larger class of necessity, to forego the privileges of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks.”

LostInTheWoods• 17 years ago

Like many things in life ... you get what you put into it.

jaspertheghost2• 17 years ago

I think the higher education market is in for a reality check just like what the credit market is going through right now.

1) Because of the deluge of college students. Many college educated people get jobs at Best Buy and retail outlets. Some of my high school friends are in situations like that. They assumed they would get a good job out of college, but that's what they get by getting a liberal arts degree and partying for 4 years. A 30,000-40,000 per year tuition, all down the drain.

2) Because a lot of job performance is measured by the market (i.e. startups). Getting a prestigious college degree doesn't necessarily get you the job needed and a lot of times you'll get beaten out by someone at a "less prestigious" school.

3) Many people getting a college, medical, or law degree should realize that if they're not at the top of their class, it's not necessarily guaranteed for them to get a great job. For a less prestigious university, it's even more so the case.

4) All of this will lead college counselors and the next generation of parents to advice people to get the most value for their money: i.e. a good education for a good price (i.e. not going to Harvard for Engineering, etc).

tokenadult4• 17 years ago

a good education for a good price (i.e. not going to Harvard for Engineering

Do you seriously think going to Harvard for engineering is a bad idea? Why do you think so? Would it still be a bad idea if the student enjoys Harvard's financial aid and is paying just a few thousand dollars a year (earned through part-time work) to attend Harvard?

(I'd really like to know, so I'm inviting any onlooker with knowledge of this issue to reply.)

smanek2• 17 years ago

The SEAS (School of Engineering and Applied Science at Harvard) is a actually surprisingly decent. The one thing that gets some people is that CS is taught from a very mathematical bend - about a third of the CS classes don't require any significant work on a computer (besides typesetting the problem sets in TeX). I actually prefer it that way - I'd rather focus on theory in class, I can pick up the idiosyncrasies of the tools and languages on my own time.

I understand that Harvard's Math department is pretty impressive too (near the same level as MIT/Princeton/etc).

jaspertheghost2• 17 years ago

I don't the decision should be evaluated just as a yes or no decision. There was a piece of research that looked at applicants to Ivy Leagues and applicants to magnet schools. For applicants of High School Magnet schools, the leading indicator was not whether they got in, but rather if they applied. For people who got into Ivy Leagues, the leading indicator was if they "chose" to go somewhere else and get an education there instead.

There's an inmeasuable quality of ambition that cannot be quantified on paper. I personally know many of my friends who have gotten into "prestigious" Universities who are not doing as well as some of my other friends.

It's the same reason why Nobel Laureates come from various universities. If the measuring tool to get into Ivy Leagues were a perfect indicator, these professors would be considered a fluke.

I've come to realize more and more that tests are inherently flawed.

RK3• 17 years ago

If you get an MD you are pretty much guaranteed a job, even if you go to a Caribbean school. As long as you can get a license, someone will hire you.

arghnoname• 17 years ago

Right, the old joke: "What do you call the person who was bottom of his class at med school?" "Doctor"

psyklic• 17 years ago

The article's point: The job market is flooded, disadvantaging recent graduates without experience. Hence, we need to give newcomers more experience so they can compete.

This doesn't seem to help the situation. (1) Now, experienced people with families to support will (theoretically) be out of work longer, and (2) Raising the bar on "practical" experience raises it for everyone, still making jobs hard to get.

yters3• 17 years ago

One thing British schools do is have a year interning inbetween the rest of the years for the degree. This both gives the student real world experience and helps them get their name out. Plus, it encourages businesses to invest in the students, since they have the opportunity to hire a good candidate in a couple years.

dangrover• 17 years ago

As someone who's currently taking a break from school and doubting the value of it, I keep seeing these articles and thinking "Sweet! Maybe I'm right, if $publication is saying it!"

But then I read the article, and it's always some sob story about average folks who went to college in a liberal arts field while making absolutely no attempts at establishing an independent career in the field or working outside of class on their trade. Then they get out, and they're a convenience store clerk or something.

They end up having the opposite effect on me, rather than confirming my biases.

DanielBMarkham3• 17 years ago

Why don't you focus on education, instead of schooling?

Pick the things you need to learn to reach the goals you want. Go learn those things. Repeat and rinse. That may or may not mean formal schooling. It could mean mentoring, hands-on work, lots of book-reading, long seminars. There are lots of ways to learn.

Schooling is where they pick those things for you. What I keep getting from these articles is that most major institutions aren't very good at picking those things for you. That the selection of things to pick from are driven more by politics and happytalk than practical results for most of the students participating. There's no feedback between what defines a degree and what the actual perceived value is from those receiving one.

If I were you, I might go back, and I might not. That's kinda the point -- you're supposed to take ownership and actually do something. Failure to take ownership of your education is what leads to working at the chicken-plucking factory, not a lack of a degree.

trjordan2• 17 years ago

I agree, the primary focus of school should be learning. However, just because somebody is smart and motivated does not mean they'll learn on their own. For somebody like the GP, a college education can provide access to a huge number of resources that you simply can't find anywhere else. There are some people for whom the combination of great professors, literary resources, and a focus on learning for 3.5 months at a time will provide a better and more concentrated education than anywhere else. Outside of college, you have to spend at least some of your energy on acquiring those opportunites, necessarily making it less effective.

That said, I don't think that college is this way for everybody. If you're disengaged in classes and primarily linked in to the social scene, then the value you get out of college is less clear. A degree is socially necessary for some jobs, so it's not entirely wasted time, but the price is steep.

Point being, college is like everything else: you get out what you put in. I wouldn't trade my college experience for anything (especially that $160k). Nothing is a panacea.

petercooper• 17 years ago

There's something we must ask before that. Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?

DanielBMarkham3• 17 years ago

Is it time for the U.S. to rethink it's educational model?

No. We do not have a model for all education. That's centralized planning, which doesn't work. What we need to re-think is what activities we encourage by financing. We heavily finance 4 years of student activity that, by this author's account, does not prepare students for providing for their own needs after school. In short, we're creating 22 and 24-year-olds without the chutzpah that a common street hustler has at age 15. And we're paying lots of money to do it.

Education has always been about goals. I love the fuzzy goals like appreciation of arts, understanding of various philosophical schools, sensitivity to world cultural differences -- things that you absolutely need but are hard to measure. Problem is, you can subsidize things that are hard to measure. There's no quality control. There's no standard to say whether institution X is doing any better or worse than institution Y.

People, young or old, need to be able to adapt to find a spot in a complex society where they can provide value to the rest of us in such a fashion that we formally thank them -- that is, we give them money. That's job #1. That's something we have a public interest in advocating.

More worrisome is that groupthink that colleges instill. It's always there under the surface, as in this quote from the article:

One newly-minted MBA said that if worse comes to worst, he'll stay at home and look after the baby he and his wife are expecting...."provided," the reporter remarked, "his wife still has her job."

If worse comes to worse he'll actually raise his own kid, instead of having somebody else do it for him. The sacrifices we must make.

bfryer• 17 years ago

Hi, I'm the HBR editor who wrote the original blog. This is a fascinating conversation! I invite you all to contribute your comments directly at http://blogs.harvardbusiness.org/hbreditors/2009/01/what_is_... The more the merrier!

Is College Working?

Related Stories