Bullfrog in the Dungeon

https://www.filfre.net/2025/08/bullfrog-in-the-dungeon/

by doppp • 11 months ago

162 50 11 months ago

_mu• 11 months ago

So many fond memories of Dungeon Keeper. Still haven't found a game that compares, similar to the original XCom. We were spoiled in the 90s!

lab14• 11 months ago

"War for the Overworld" is pretty close to the original Dungeon Keeper experience.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/230190/War_for_the_Overwo...

dividuum• 11 months ago

Can't enjoy that without DK's wobbly affine texture mapping :-)

ericbarrett• 11 months ago

Seconded. Pretty sure the narrator is the same voice actor too

(Edit) yup: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Ridings

eterm• 11 months ago

Dungeon keeper is a game that I was perhaps slightly too young or slightly too impatient to really enjoy the gameplay of.

I loved the concept, and spent many hours playing it, but actually progressing properly never really clicked with me, I generally resorted to either playing early easy levels or cheats to experience more of the game.

Unfortunately it's also a game that's slightly too flawed to enjoy as a "remastered" game.

But the aesthetic and the general vibes of the game were great.

jerf• 11 months ago

If Theme Hospital sounds interesting to you, the more-modern Two Point Hospital is not only essentially a remake (but for legal reasons, totally not a remake please stop asking), but perhaps one of the best remakes of a game I know of in terms of updating it while keeping the core feel of the game completely intact. If I had not been aware that it was a separate game I would have had some real spooky moments as I tried to figure out how I could so clearly remember playing a 2018 game as an undergrad in college in the late 90s. (Time tends to upgrade graphics in retrospect.) Quite a few returning designers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Point_Hospital#Development

The whacky hospital hijinks may draw you in, but at its core it is a person-flow simulator; how do you get your patients through increasingly complicated layout scenarios? Which is way more fun than it sounds. Not sure the fun lasts long enough for anyone to exceed the base scenario, though, not sure the DLC is of much value honestly.

(Be sure to poke at the quality-of-life improvements that are a bit buried, such as the ability to template rooms, and copy already-existing rooms, without having to completely recreate them each time. It's worth the time to fiddle with. Also don't miss that you can create non-square rooms.)

Dungeon Keeper has had several attempts at spiritual revival. None of the ones I've tried hit it but I have not tried them all. The original has the Quality without a Name that nothing else, even its sequel in my opinion, has quite managed to capture. Whether or not a modern player coming at it for the first time would agree, I don't know. Mechanically and intellectually, I agree with Peter's own assessment of the game as given in the article, but at the time the QwaN overcame the quite non-trivial mechanical issues somehow. One of the very few games my wife has clocked much time with. I think a lot of the attempts to recapture it end up having the mechanical flaws with the design but without the QwaN they can't overcome the issues.

One of the biggest issues is that digging is too easy in DK, but it has to be to work at any reasonable speed. So it becomes too easy and too permanent to become directly exposed to your enemy, resulting in a situation where the first skirmish with the enemy essentially determines all. This skirmish involved neither strategy nor tactics, either, as the combat engine is not amenable to much beyond "what monsters are allocated to this fight", and often the only practical answer is "all of them, as fast as I can gather them". The first game "solved" this by allowing you to fortify walls, but then the fortifications were completely impenetrable to computer players, which caused its own problems, turning "turtling" into the plainly optimal strategy whenever it is possible. (Humans had a spell that could de-fortify walls so it didn't work in P2P. As with many games, P2P sort of by default fixes a lot of balance issues by simply ensuring that the humans are on the same level by default, even if the underlying game is itself dubious.) The second game tried to fix it by making the fortified walls not be impenetrable, but merely "slowing down" the enemy somewhat effectively has no result. The game mechanics are very effective at building dungeons, and the "survive waves of adventurers" levels work OK, but the mechanics are not very good at combat between two dungeon masters and it's not clear to me that it is fixable without an overhaul so major it's not the same thing anymore.

chpatrick• 11 months ago

War for the Overworld is the DK revival you're looking for!

enraged_camel• 11 months ago

I have very fond memories of Dungeon Keeper. The devious traps, the torture chambers where you could convert your goodly hero prisoners, the way you could backslap your imps into working a bit faster, the way you could take possession of any minion to turn the game into an FPS... all of these, plus many more, were just genius-level design elements that made the game what it is.

The 90s were a special time when it came to video games. I'm a bit saddened that we are unlikely to repeat that era. There are some great games today too, but none of them capture that same zeitgeist.

sdenton4• 11 months ago

My game of the year had been UFO 50, which simultaneously distills 80s console and early-aughts Flash game jam ethos. Incredibly inventive takes on a very wide range of game genres; an absolute masterpiece of game design.

pm90• 11 months ago

I agree with everything you said, but I do see many, many games today that are pretty creative and innovative too! And I look forward to game creation becoming more accessible and seeing more folks able to create games in the future.

ultimafan• 11 months ago

I feel like bigger studios have definitely been playing it safer in the last 10-15 years. You used to see a lot more unorthodox ideas and mechanics or just flat out bizarre premises that I'm sometimes baffled even got the green light to go ahead. Today for the most part that kind of daring seems mostly relegated to the indie space. Everyone else looks for the safest option they hope will sell.

MrJagil2• 11 months ago

If anyone is yearning to play, DK is alive and well: https://keeperfx.net

It's really fun to read through all the work they have done https://github.com/dkfans/keeperfx

countrymile• 11 months ago

Absolutely essential if you want to play dk. It fixes the graphics issue and some glitches in the game. With this dk1 becomes a much better game than dk2

Agingcoder• 11 months ago

I played dk when it came out - most of my friends ( tabletop rpg fans) were really excited, and enjoyed the humor as well. It didn’t click with me, and I found the graphics hard to read and ugly.

I think populous or theme park were better games.

oceansky• 11 months ago

Magic Carpet 2, what a throwback

nntwozz3• 11 months ago

Yes, and also Syndicate. What an amazing game, the intro is still superb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw2W_Ap7m2k

jonathanlydall• 11 months ago

Loved Syndicate. When it first came out I was too young to be competent at it.

Played it about 10 years later highly effectively. Using persuadetrons at every possible moment made progress much easier.

The only thing that stands out as “clunky” about the game was its locked isometric view and layers sometimes obscuring your or other agents, making it difficult to know what’s going on.

jhbadger2• 11 months ago

One of the few games to have had a future Nobel Laureate work on it! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demis_Hassabis

indigoabstract2• 11 months ago

The critique about the game betraying his trust is something only a contemporary player could come up with.

Back then, this type of complaint would simply not have crossed anyone's mind, not even in people who didn't like the game.

I played it from start to finish when it came out and thoroughly enjoyed it (and did it again about a decade later).

Then I did the same with DK2 in '99, though I mostly remember the "Disco Inferno" gag more than anything else about that game.

I guess the first one made a more lasting impression.

jhbadger2• 11 months ago

No, the idea of games having fair vs unfair puzzles was very much a thing at the time. For example, Sierra adventure games were infamous for having puzzles that made no sense (like using cat hair to make a false mustache, which nobody could have guessed was possible or needed), whereas LucasArts and Infocom puzzles were (in general) more reasonable.

moomin• 11 months ago

Indeed, so famous it’s the subject of an entire OMM article (one of the guys behind OMM went on to write the script for Portal demonstrating he was a critic who could actually do the thing better than the people doing it). https://www.oldmanmurray.com/features/78.html

The absolute pinnacle of this idiocy? The person you are disguising yourself as _doesn’t have a moustache_.

JetSetIlly• 11 months ago

I'm reminded of Graham Nelson's "Bill of Player's Rights" which neatly summarised the concerns of the time. https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.int-fiction/c/F_gosVUpd...

indigoabstract2• 11 months ago

That was a just plot twist (play against another DK), not a badly designed puzzle. They are very different.

The author is complaining that because the game didn't warn him to change his strategy, he was unfairly beaten and forced to restart the level (and so wasting his valuable time and money). And indeed, you cannot break enemy walls in DK1, nor can they break yours, that's by design.

But this is just playing a 30 year old game with today's mindset. Now everything is faster, gamers have more limited time and even more limited attention spans and different expectations. Back then, you would just see it as a challenge, restart and beat the level, all without making any fuss about it.

It's like, did people in the middle ages complain that washing was hard and they needed washing machines to save time?

Probably not, but people today certainly would. It comes down to expectations.

AdmiralAsshat• 11 months ago

Personally, though, I’ll take the second game’s refinement over any such nebulous quality. If I was coming to Dungeon Keeper cold today, this is definitely where I would start.

This was my feeling, too, having no prior history with Dungeon Keeper and buying both titles on sale on GOG in the past year. DKII is definitely easier for the modern gamer to jump into. It also had some gameplay ideas that were novel and not terribly well-developed, but just fun--like being able to possess an individual grunt and suddenly have the isometric real-time strategy shift to a first-person perspective.

er4hn• 11 months ago

Wandering around my dungeon, doing things, in the first person was such a fun experience as well. It felt like such a novel way to explore what I was doing and look at my creatures "in the face" so to say. In some ways it feels like a precursor to things like minecraft, where you could do some tasks as an imp in the dungeon.

RichardLake• 11 months ago

The possess creature was in the first game. Have you tried the original with keeperFX? It improves the UX for building rooms so if that was your issue with the first game.

vintermann• 11 months ago

That feature was a "you're kidding!" moment for me when I first played that game. Ok, the first person graphics weren't exactly Doom, but that they were there at all was crazy. First person shooters were a pretty new genre when the game came out! They even were "better" than Doom in some ways, with many monsters having ridiculous graphics filters.

animal531• 11 months ago

There's a big design problem with the 2nd title that only really becomes apparent when you engage in multiplayer versus people.

You can essentially rush to the ultimate Reaper character by just having everyone pray, which is both a game ender and a spoiler, because it really makes the game boring.

Having said that, this was for the original version when it came out, I don't know if they ever did anything about it and/or for the later GoG etc. versions.

wincy• 11 months ago

I remember Dungeon Keeper was the first time I ever “hacked” something, I had a demo of Dungeon Keeper that I’d downloaded over 56K, and couldn’t afford the game at 14 or so, but by looking at the config files realized all the characters and their stats were in there, so I was able to unlock all of the units, only without their art assets! Invisible giants were walking around my dungeon doing my bidding. I was very proud of myself and spent many dozens of hours playing this demo because of this, and it probably helped lead me to becoming a software engineer eventually.

partomniscient• 11 months ago

Ha, I did the same kind of thing with the dodgy corrupted copy of Ultima III that was circulating at the time when I was too young to afford anything - the main map had a string of garbage items ruining the feel and also navigation (it made the game almost uncompletable. I don't know if this was an intentional move to reduce copyright infringement or not...?

If I remember correctly, there was a town called Yew, which had some druids which gave you hints towards the final answer you need to solve the game, but otherwise was not important. I worked out the % symbol represented a chest for the game and replaced the Yew town data file (the files were all separate) by hex-editing it to be full of chests. So I had effectively unlimited gold and a chance to spawn better weapons/armour for my characters.

I also ended up becoming a software engineer. Once I could afford it, I bought it as part of the Ultima I-IX compilation which came out on CD decades later.

Zardoz84• 11 months ago

hey! I did the same thing. was funny playing with the invisible Dragon.

Rassi• 11 months ago

Any hope for a more modern version or something at least in the vein of Populous? I've been looking for years and really haven't found anything...

Whoppertime• 11 months ago

I spent a couple years posting on the Keeper Klan forums I remember them having a page which was just filled with ads they would ask users to refresh the page on and not talk about while they were raising money for some project

boomskats• 11 months ago

I've heard a lot of people say that Glenn Corpes was more important to Bullfrog than Peter Molyneux - the real brains behind the operation, kinda like Woz to Jobs, but instead of Silicon Valley it was a little office in a business park attached to a university on the outskirts of Guildford. Shame the article doesn't mention him.

I spent best part of a decade at a creative coworking space literally in the room directly below the original Bullfrog offices. Met some excellent people there & got to hear a lot of stories.

Here[0]'s a pre-covid pic I just found of Bullfrog's original front door mat, here acting as the backdrop to my temperamental espresso machine.

Good times.

[0] https://imgur.com/a/EtuzIGf

DonHopkins• 11 months ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22599809

DonHopkins on March 17, 2020 | prev | next [–]

Bullfrog's classic game "Theme Hospital" had really great emergent vomit cascades.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y69QTjTvp1w

simcop2387 on March 17, 2020 | parent | next [–]

Two Point Hospital does fantastically as a spiritual successor to Theme Hospital.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmlaOYMU8qA

DonHopkins on March 17, 2020 | root | parent | next [–]

Cool, thank you! I'll check in and check it out. (Installing it now!) Does it have a "Bloaty Head" treatment? ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le_znuXcP2M

I played a LOT of Theme Hospital when working on The Sims 1, and aspired to make the Sims editing tools as easy to use and "clicky" as Theme Hospital was. That and some of Peter Molyneux's older games like Dungeon Keeper, with architectural editing and a lot of independent characters running around at the same time, had a lot of influence on The Sims.

mft_3• 11 months ago

An aside, but:

Alas, after the deal was done EA promptly started to pull Molyneux in way too many directions for his liking. He was given a set of executive titles and the executive suite to go along with it, removing him from the day-to-day work in the trenches. <snip> Molyneux was painfully ill-equipped for the role of a glad-handing EA vice president; it just made him uncomfortable and miserable.

I see this all of the time in corporate life: the assumption that someone is good at one role, so they must be suited to the next role up, even if the requirements are entirely different. It's such a shame that we're not better at figuring this out as a race, as it leads to so much friction with people being promoted to roles they're not suited to for a variety of reasons, and the negative organisational consequences as a result.

spuz• 11 months ago

This is known as the Peter Principle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

mft_3• 11 months ago

Thanks :)

I guess what I'm wishing for is better awareness of areas of strength and weakness when making such decisions.

I can think of people who should never have been promoted to, say, a strategic role or a team management role, but would have been excellent to be promoted to an expert individual contributor (i.e. 'fellow', or 'expert scientist') role.

ranger207• 11 months ago

A couple modern and related games to the ones in the article are

* War for the Overworld: a modern version of Dungeon Keeper

* KeeperRL: Dungeon Keeper but as a traditional roguelike

* Two Point Hospital: modern Theme Hospital

* Galacticare: Theme Hospital in space; the big mechanical difference is that different alien species have different requirements

* Project Hospital: Theme Hospital with realistic treatments and multiple floors

Bullfrog in the Dungeon

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