Ergonomic keyboarding with the Svalboard: a half-year retrospective

by Twey • 12 months ago

123 65 12 months ago

eviks2• 12 months ago

The progression from unergonomic garbage default to splits and ~glovey form makes sense (with the future more sensitive per-finger sensors allowing for more gestures?), though it's a pity the health issues were involved, and that the resulting niche is small and expensive. Where are all the cheep rubber dome splits? Those would already offer health advantage without the mechanical premium...

By the way, the layout might better use physical direction mnemonics, so backspace could be a finger move to the left, and delete - move to the right (either by the same finger or maybe by its mirrored counterpart on another hand). Similar thing for <> and -+-+

north keys are much harder to hit than its south keys, find the inward lateral keys much easier to hit than the north keys

So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?

Twey7• 12 months ago

I agree, I never wanted to get into mechanical keyboards per se — I was always just on the lookout for an ergonomic layout. Mechanical switches are cheaper and cheaper these days, though, and I suspect the premium on high-end keyboards now is more from a combination of the luxury good tax and the lack of economies of scale.

I really wanted to make myself a steno theory for the CharaChorder, but now I don't have time. There's definitely something to be done with keyboards like this and I do reckon you could do better than with the mechanical constraints of the stenotype, but it's not trivial: the extra inputs are hard to make use of if you want to avoid awkward ‘scissoring’ strokes, though there are definitely some comfortable strokes in there to mine.

The physical direction thing is a neat idea but a bit hindered by the fact that the two sides have very different accessibility: typically the inward keypress is much easier than the outward keypress. There might be some pairs that's good for, though, e.g. the backspace/delete pair you mention (if put on the right hand: delete is much less common, in my experience, than backspace).

So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?

Right, for me at least that seems to be the case. Other Svalboard users seem to pretty unanimously agree that outward movements are worse than inward movements, especially on e.g. the ring finger, but people differ on how the inward/upward/downward movements compare.

eviks2• 12 months ago

typically the inward keypress is much easier than the outward keypress.

That's why my default suggested mode is to mirror, for example:

  - right index finger moving left to backspace and

  - left index finger moving right to delete

Or right middle finger down for > and left middle finger down for <

zamalek4• 12 months ago

The think the premium that these devices suffer from is how niche they are. Mechanical is relatively niche to begin with (programmers and gamers, mostly). Then you add the idea of making a single large investment for the good of your health, and the pool gets even thinner. Just think of all the garbage chairs that people sit on in front of their computer; let alone keyboards, which they barely think of (until they get RSI, that is).

I'm currently designing one that is a crossover between the characorder and a Logitech vertical mouse (but not actually a mouse), and I hope to make it cheap. It has been going poorly, to say the least. The biggest problem so far is smaller hands, multiple designs scrapped when put in front of such a person. Maybe I should take inspiration from Svalboard instead? Furthermore, Average Joe is not going to tolerate the massive dependency on layers that these keyboards often have, so I'm still fighting in my head with an approach for that.

Twey7• 12 months ago

That sounds really cool! I'd love to see it when you've got something more concrete. I assume you're already aware of the KeyMouse and the AlphaGrip?

https://www.keymouse.com/ https://alphagrip.com/

I don't think the layering needs to be as big a deal as one might assume. I mentioned in the post, but in many ways I think layering is easier to deal with than larger keyboards, and not only that but also culturally small-keyboard users are increasingly okay with using layers, e.g. the tiny-keyboard gamer crowd, or even most laptops now have a dedicated Fn layer in addition to the traditional shift, ctrl, and alt. So long as you don't go overboard with it I think it shouldn't be that intimidating.

ilc5• 12 months ago

The Datahand / Svalboard branch is even more niche than a standard mech board. They are really designed for people who are facing injury, injured, or have been injured.

I'd encourage you to look at the Svalboard, I think it solves many of the issues you are running into. In the end, moving a large mouse is not good for someone with shoulder issues, the "Svalmouse" has been tried and solidly rejected. (Using a Svalboard hand as a mouse.)

If you want to discuss things, I'm sure you can find me on the Svalboard discord. :)

jerlam3• 12 months ago

Where are all the cheep rubber dome splits?

The only halfway decent player in this category was Microsoft, with its line of Natural Keyboards. I've used four or five of them, decent enough. I doubt Microsoft was making a lot of money.

The line was discontinued in 2023 and sold to Incase:

https://www.incase.com/pages/incase-designed-by-microsoft-co...

newlisp• 12 months ago

Kinesis now has https://kinesis-ergo.com/keyboards/mwave/ as a better(to me) Microsoft sculpt clone in a similar price range.

tom_• 12 months ago

I've been pretty happy with this as a MS 4000 replacement: https://eu.perixx.com/products/periboard-535 - general tent/reverse tilt/split angle feels about the same. Like the MS 4000, it's a full size keyboard, with symmetrical sets of meta keys, unintrusive level of F-lock nonsense, easily accessible keyboard volume controls, and a generally standard layout that will probably require only minimal retraining. Also connects to your computer using a cable... none of that wireless nonsense. The UK layout version is under £100 on Amazon.

It feels a bit less solid than the MS 4000, but it's nicer to type on.

(The MS 4000 was always a huge pain to repair (endless screws to get inside, many annoyingly inaccessible; never anything obviously wrong once in there; time-consuming cleaning/drying-out process; endless screws to put it back together again), but this looks like it might be a bit better. Not many screws on the bottom. It isn't thick enough for there to be any hiding inside. The keyswitches will probably be individually replaceable. Ask me again in 10 years though!)

ilc5• 12 months ago

Disclaimer: Volunteer Svalboard Firmware Dev.

For most people the south keys and center are easier to press and more importantly hold. I don't care much about directions anymore, except for holding down keys.

Layout is a personal thing, we use Vial, so different people have different layouts, mine has a ton of mnemonics in it. It's really up to the user what they want, I'd be surprised if there are 2 Svalboards with the same layout. (Maybe stock when they are starting out, but people develop their own opinions pretty quickly.)

thomastjeffery• 12 months ago

Whoever is first to mass-produce a cheap rubber-dome split columnar keyboard is going to sell a lot of keyboards, and kick the ergo keyboard revolution into high gear. Just imagine selling 90% of a $349 keyboard.io Model 100 for $20, and it only cost you $3 to make. Throw it on the shelves and watch it sell itself. It's a novelty. It's an accessibility tool. It's the first step into a new hobby. You wouldn't even need to advertise; people would buy it just because it's interesting.

I finally made it into a Micro Center yesterday. There isn't one anywhere near my home state, so I jumped at the opportunity. What did I buy? Two ortholinear keyboards. There is a huge market for these things, and even the geekiest big-box store in the nation only bothers to sell 2. Why? Because nobody wants to spend more than $30 on something they haven't ever tried.

ako2• 12 months ago

Keychron has some "ergonomic" mechanical keyboards that are fairly affordable. It's not perfect (no tent, no split), but overall it's a nice compromise.

jama211• 12 months ago

This is wild

RDaneel0livaw• 12 months ago

I have loved split ergo boards since childhood. Several years ago I found the sp111 board and truly think this is my endgame. I am right handed, so a southpaw numpad just makes SO much sense to me. Plus I use it for gaming so it's like a built in gaming macropad.

I also have a kinesis advantage 2 with some insanely nice switches, but never use it just because of the learning curve.

clircle• 12 months ago

I’ll just say that I bought a kinesis advantage a few years ago and did not like it due to the learning curve. But after trying a couple other ergonomic keyboards, and then coming back to the low force, kinesis advantage 2 LF, it’s now the only keyboard I want to use.

jiehong• 12 months ago

Looks like a cool kind of keyboard.

I tried the ergodox, but eventually resold it (came from a typematrix). But I like most my Kinesis Advantage 360.

Strangely, I find myself using dictation more and more while working. With a headset on, people don’t notice much since it looks and sound like being in a virtual meeting.

Coding is still best with a keyboard.

Twey7• 12 months ago

I don't think there's _fundamentally_ anything hard about voice coding, but our current systems are terribly designed for it. We need programming languages that are much more keyword- rather than symbol-heavy, or more efficient systems of pronouncing symbols, or higher-level editing primitives, or maybe all of the above. There's some overlap with both stenography (which I know some people use for code, but I've never got around to setting up a theory for) and also structured editing projects like Hazel. Reckon we might see more of it in the future, if we're to make the ubiquitous and malleable computing dreams a reality.

GavinMcG• 12 months ago

Perhaps a stack-based language like Uiua would be well-suited.

donio2• 12 months ago

I am a longtime (25+ years) Datahand user. I have converted my units to a USB capable controller long ago and I have some extra ones as spares/parts but it might be difficult to get another 25 years out of them.

Haven't tried the Svalboard yet but it's the only obvious way forward that I know of so happy to see any new information about it. I'd be especially interested in the opinion of other Datahand users regarding the Svalboard, specifically the hardware, the switches and overall feel.

ilc5• 12 months ago

Ex-Datahand user, current Svalboard user: (Disclaimer, I work on their firmware as a volunteer, they send me hardware.)

The designer was 100% dependent on his Datahand, now he uses a Svalboard.

When I got sent my first Svalboard, it was so close feel wise that my old muscle memory came back instantly and I started complaining that the layout wasn't the same as the old Datahand Dvorak layout. I ended up doing a faithful port of that layout, then ever time evolved it to the layout I use today.

If you doubt, order a test cluster. You'll see how close it comes.

On the discord some users are willing to meet-up with people to let them try a board in real life.

Fraterkes• 12 months ago

My big fear would be that the same thing would happen that happens with vim: you get so used to it that you resent its absence. With Vim I can at least enable some kind of mode in many typing environments, but if I started loving the Svalboard itd mean that I could never use laptops again without feeling at least a bit annoyed.

efnx• 12 months ago

As a datahand user I can tell you that is indeed the case. But 99% of the time (likely more) I’m typing at home.

Why deny yourself the pleasure of a nice typing experience the majority of the time?

ilc5• 12 months ago

Honestly, you can maintain laptop muscle memory if your hands are not so injured you can't tolerate the laptop.

I use a laptop keyboard every so often. It isn't my 1st choice, but for light work it's fine.

jerlam3• 12 months ago

Laptops have tradeoffs, just like all other mobile devices.

I don't avoid using an ultrawide monitor at home, because sometimes I have to use a phone that fits in my pocket.

ivanjermakov2• 12 months ago

It is indeed very painful, but solution is simple - always bring your keyboard. It's easier with low profile splits than with Svalboard though.

My Ferris Sweep fits into an 2.5" SSD travel case.

donio2• 12 months ago

Datahand user, for me switching back and forth between the DH and a regular keyboard (a Thinkpad for the most part) is not a problem at all. It doesn't even feel particularly annoying, I think it's because it almost feels like a different input device category. Kind of like playing the same game on the Steamdeck with controller input and then later on the desktop with keyboard and mouse. I might prefer one but I am fine with the other too.

BTW, I've played about 15K matches of my favorite MOBA on the Datahand, works surprisingly well for that, I imagine the Svalboard would too.

OldfieldFund2• 12 months ago

you will never forget QWERTY, so it's just a little annoyance once in a while.

j1elo• 12 months ago

One thing that usually doesn't get mentioned is what happens when someone else needs to quickly use the computer for whatever. Like a coworker helping you to check something, for which I just leave them the controls; or a partner doing a quick google while we discuss about where to travel next. I'm just making up scenarios, but the point is that not having an additional backup keyboard effectively makes the machine unusable for anyone else; this could jokingly be a pro, but more seriously it seems to be a hidrance for collaboration. And unless living in a cave, we collaborate with other human beings sooner or later. So an additional keyboard it is...

the same happened to me when I used the Elecom Huge trackball... I'd want someone to check something and they wouldn't even know how to left click :) (it's done with the thumb)

ivanjermakov2• 12 months ago

to quickly use the computer for whatever

I prefer to be the only person using my computer.

As a plus, split keyboard with a custom layout and a minimal window manager kinda act as a lock screen.

butshouldyou• 12 months ago

It's funny that you mention this because in my discussions on this subject (Svalboard, ergo keyboards in general) it's the first thing that numerous people have mentioned. The thing is, I'm the only person who's used my computer in many years.

I have a non-standard layout and keep a second (small wireless) keyboard around for exactly this reason but to date it hasn;t been needed.

stavros• 12 months ago

Plus, this seems like a case of optimizing the thing you use eight hours a day for other people.

It's like buying a mattress for you that you don't like, just because "you may have guests a few days a year".

ako2• 12 months ago

For quick use people no longer need a computer, most of these quick use cases can be handled by a phone.

627467• 12 months ago

I can see where you're coming from but this seems to be an argument against ergonomic tech like left handed scissors or alternative input tools. If it's a personal tool and you'll be using for hours a day, shouldn't it be as best adapted fo you as possible? Surely collaboration can still occurr through workarounds

ssfrr• 12 months ago

Is there evidence that minimizing finger movement is ergonomically desirable? It seems like "repetitive" is a key part of RSI, so making the exact same small motion over and over again may not be optimal.

I think about piano players, who obviously need to move their hands and arms a lot to hit the keys (and with more force). Definitely takes a lot more energy than typing on a computer keyboard, but is there evidence that it's any more or less likely to cause injury?

Twey7• 12 months ago

Precise causes of RSI are, as far as I know, still largely unknown, but (at least as far as current hypotheses go) there does have to be some kind of strain involved.

From a quick search, it seems piano players do suffer from a high incidence of RSI (e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12611474/, which also correlates it with smaller hands, i.e. more stretching).

akdor11542• 12 months ago

I have the same crank theory. I have shithouse typing technique - hands fly everywhere, whichever finger is closest, wrists move a fair bit, what's a home row? I stuck rubber o-rings under all my keys so bottoming out wasn't painful. My keyboard has the heaviest sprung switches i could find, and I'm still on the lookout for a heavier mechanism (e.g. literally a typewriter or piano type mechanism).

I also started learning piano at 4 and played daily until 25 or so. I still play other instruments but with different movements.

I am 35 and still have no hint of RSI or carpal tunnel (touch wood). I had a scare for a bit but turned out my mouse was just in a dumb position.

YMMV but the above informs my crank belief of 'move heaps, varied as much as possible, get strong fingers and forearms' being a viable approach.

N.B. A note on the bottoming out stuff: this was again inspired by my piano teacher who taught a technique of imagining pressing the piano keys 'through' the base, further than they move in reality. This was combined with the weight coming from your entire arm, fore, bicep, and shoulder, not from your fingers.

N.B.B. If anyone knows input methods that take this to extremes I'd love to know. I.E. something that involves moving your entire arm around. I've occasionally looked at jumbo-sized keyboard for those with learning and dexterity difficulties for example.

jatins• 12 months ago

Do you do weight training in gym? I wonder if that has an impact

earthicus2• 12 months ago

I recently started learning the piano as an adult, and from what i've gathered from reading and watching videos, the 'folk wisdom' about how to avoid rsi-type injuries is to minimize tension in your wrist by maximizing relaxation of your fingers and wrists (especially the thumbs, which tend to get locked into a permanent state of mild tension on the piano keyboard). So you want to do your best to develop more finger independence, so that you can press with one finger while keeping the neighboring fingers relaxed. It's really hard.

xlii• 12 months ago

If you can I'd recommend getting piano teacher and live lessons. I got one and improvement in posture was a biggest gain I got. That and some cultural push (e.g. there's no wrong music, only the music someone doesn't like, or put piano next to window to learn to not watch on own hands).

snozolli• 12 months ago

About the time that I graduated from college, I'd developed bilateral tendinitis in both wrists. It took me years of physical therapy, habituating stretching, breaks, and new exercise, along with a string of different types of keyboards.

I learned Dvorak on a Kinesis keyboard. Years later, I realized that switching to the high-quality, consistent, mechanical Kinesis was 99% of the payoff.

If I were doing it over again, I'd have just jumped to something like a QWERTY Realforce with Topre switches.

For the record, the absolute worst keyboard was an early Microsoft 'Ergonomic'. The inconstant resistance absolutely tore my tendons up. Also for the record, the best thing to stave off injuries after healing was taking up rock climbing as a hobby.

floren• 12 months ago

I used a split tenting ortholinear keyboard (ergodox) for a long time but oddly when I built my own custom old-fashioned keyboard (staggered keys, not split, tons of keys based on a Lisp machine keyboard) it basically eliminated all hand pain. I don't know if I found the perfect key switch for my hand or what but it's better than my ergodox ever was.

aorth• 12 months ago

After decades of typing I recently started having a "tender" feeling in my finger tips. I went to an orthopedic surgeon and he said it's not carpal tunnel, but simply over use. Other than taking breaks, stretching, and not getting in the habit of working at night, can anyone give some practical advice that helped them? Do I need to stretch more? Strengthen? Change my diet? It's not too bad but I'm wondering how I can go on like this for ten or twenty more years.

wahnfrieden2• 12 months ago

I switched to very light action keys. I’m on Pro Red chocs but have also liked even lighter ones. I also use Glove80 which minimizes finger contortion

Also start dictating more where you can. Try WisprFlow or other cutting edge alternatives

Use LLMs for dictated work even if closely instructed. It can be easier to verbally describe changes to make than to type them out precisely. Even if you are very specific about the changes needed, in terms of code not just functional requirements

And stop typing much on smartphones

bschwarz• 12 months ago

Try a keyboard with very light keys and a trackpad that allows you to tap instead of pressing. The Svalboard is one such keyboard and helped me greatly - I don't even think about the finger tip pain anymore at this point.

cryptonector2• 12 months ago

Other than taking breaks, stretching, and not getting in the habit of working at night, can anyone give some practical advice that helped them?
Do I need to stretch more?

No. In fact, I'd say almost certainly not, and you'll see why below.

Strengthen?

Probably not. That would require more repetitive stress.

Change my diet?

Don't see how that would help, unless you could use losing weight or improving your blood pressure, in which case yes, definitely.

Here's what's worked for me:

1) have my keyboard at my lap height or slightly above (think keyboard tray, or just put the keyboard on the lap),

2) monitor / laptop up high, so I don't have to look down (my neck also thanks me, not just my hands),

3) enable the accessibility feature known as "sticky keys", which I learned to use long ago,

4) never EVER rest my wrists while typing -- not ever, nor my forearms either.

The thing you have to understand is that the tendons that drive your fingers are anchored at your elbows and are quite long, and they move in tiny sheathes full of lubricant. If you press on the tendons moving through those sheathes, then that's going to cause serious harm. A related thing is that the nerves needed to drive your fingers also move, and some motions place great stress on them. For example, that motion you do to reach a key with your pinky, where you bend your wrist outward is called "ulnar deviation", and it can easily screw up the ulnar nerve that drives the pinky.

(4) helps me deal with all those deviations that hurt the nerves. Instead of turning/twisting my wrist to reach a key I let my hand float over the keyboard, moving the hand to enable the fingers to reach the desired keys with minimal tugging and pressure on the nerves. You don't need sticky keys for this if you learned to type correctly, which means pressing modifier keys with one hand and modified keys with the other, but I didn't learn that way back when, so I had to re-teach myself to type, and sticky keys helped with that.

Oh, and:

5) don't use emacs or anything that requires lots of modifier keys at once. Once again sticky keys helps with this, and to be honest I've never been an emacs user, so this is just me dunking on emacs. The point though is that emacs can really hurt you if you don't know how to type correctly.

Back to stretching: if stretching means putting your nerves through even more stretching and pressure, then it can only hurt you. Your problems aren't muscular, so stretching the muscles won't help. Your problems are with your nerves or your tendons, or both.

Oh, also, if you have anything like neuropathy you need to find a way to not have it. Idk how -- I'm not a medical doctor of any kind, and IIUC neuropathy is not a solved problem anyways.

And remember, IANAD, so take everything I say with salt. I had to figure out what to do about my hands mostly on my own, and I was inspired by a talk I saw where the speaker did pretty much that. The speaker's solutions did not work for me, but the speaker gave me the clues I needed, like the bit about ulnar deviation, and he gave me the impetus I needed: here was proof that one person could fix his hand pain problems, so maybe so could I. The above are roughly my solutions, but above all being conscious of these issues, these motions, and what they do to me -- that was the real solution. Same with posture problems and many other problems: being conscious of your problems, your bad habits, and so on, in real time is 90% of the battle, because then you can learn to correct the problems in real time, and soon it's all muscle memory and you no longer have to be constantly conscious of these details but you still become conscious of them as needed.

Best of luck to you.

wahnfrieden2• 12 months ago

This is good advice. I’d stress that having the screen up high is usually overlooked. People think of different heights when they hear this because it’s very rare to see examples of anyone having their screen actually near eye line, and most monitor arms / laptop trays won’t even go high enough.

I’d also add that having a more extreme tilt, beyond what “tenting” can provide (so, needing mounting), can also make a big difference in relieving nerve friction from twisting. Check for example how the Glove80 has a mounting kit.

And I personally found having anything actually on my lap required constant stress to balance it during use including from my hands themselves while typing and counterbalancing… mounting the keyboard halves to my chair arms or using sturdy tripods from the floor with a lounge chair etc helped me tremendously.

throwaway290• 12 months ago

Can you describe what it feels like?

OldfieldFund2• 12 months ago

start playing the piano and guitar. not joking.

burnt-resistor• 12 months ago

Had a coworker in the 90's who had the DataHand Pro II and used it with Dvorak layout. Apparently, it also had integrated mouse emulation. I recall they had platforms installed on their office chair to allow for less strain than tabletop and lap use.

I used the Microsoft Natural for a while because I was poor and couldn't afford $600 USD for a DH. If they priced it at $150-250 then, they probably would still be in business today.

Already__Taken• 12 months ago

Reading how the keys trigger, I don't know if this is interesting or not but that how high end paintball markers work, with lots of adjustability.

felurx• 12 months ago

I sometimes think about trying keyboard things like this, but I'm pretty much always on the go with my laptop. My desk at home can be described as just the horizontal surface that happens to be near where I sleep and sometimes do other stuff, not my primary place of doing computer activities.

Is there some kind of very portable ergonomic/alternative typing device? Maybe something designed for steno or whatever. It would be cool if I could just hold it in my hands, since often that'd be more comfortable than the surface my laptop is on.

dododge• 12 months ago

Some models include a carrying case, but I'm not sure I'd describe them as "very portable". For example the Glove80 has a hard-shelled case, but the case itself is probably bigger than most laptops. The Moonlander packs smaller into a soft case that folds like a wallet, but it's less protective.

There are designs with far fewer keys that could probably be carried around more easily, but then you have to learn their layer/chording system.

The Svalboard has an extra issue that some folks prefer it to be placed below desk height, such as attached to a chair or sitting on an under-desk shelf, so it's not something you can generally just put on a table in front of the computer.

Ergonomic keyboarding with the Svalboard: a half-year retrospective

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