I like Svelte more than React (it's store management)

https://river.berlin/blog/why-i-like-svelte-more-than-react/

by adityashankar • 1 year ago

61 64 1 year ago

river.berlin

rendall• 1 year ago

Small critique: you probably want its (possessive of "it") in the title rather than it's ("it is") as in:

I like Svelte more than React (its store management)

bravesoul2• 1 year ago

Correct: when it's possessive, its form of it is its not it's.

Easy mnemomic: the apostrophe is for a missing letter, I.

okonomiyaki3000• 1 year ago

Also `a lot` not `alot`

bsaul• 1 year ago

as a non english native, i find it incredible how many native english speakers do this mistake

zamadatix• 1 year ago

If enough of us make this mistake then maybe the prescriptive half can drop the whole "possessive pronouns don't get an apostrophe" rule altogether :D.

The same goes for "alot", avoiding the use of "whom", and so on - I ain't gonna give up on them!

elpocko• 1 year ago

I think they've given up on this, it's ubiquitous. I've recently noticed that a CLIP model (a neural network for image understanding) gave me image descriptions using "it's" where "its" would have been correct. Hundreds of thousands of dollars to train the thing; no one noticed, no one cared ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

billforsternz• 1 year ago

Ironic that this is one case when you don't use an apostrophe to indicate the possessing entity. I suppose the rule is possessive nouns only, not pronouns.

tln• 1 year ago

With the original title, it's perfect, but after the edits its coherence is a little fractured...

Honestly I don't love HN's title edits. Why can't we have nice blog titles that start with why?

davedx• 1 year ago

The problems with these examples in my opinion is they often extend extremely trivial examples of problems to large, complex applications with a lot of assumptions about the problems those large, complex applications are likely to have.

It's great that there are alternatives to React, and that they do some things better than it. But what I find is that most large, complex applications I've worked on are not in particular hindered by the choice of React as a technology. It does vary from project to project too, of course - some applications will benefit more from some kind of well designed central state management solution.

skydhash2• 1 year ago

But what I find is that most large, complex applications I've worked on are not in particular hindered by the choice of React as a technology.

AKA, React is accidental complexity. Solving accidental complexity issues may be required some time, but more often than not, it's just something you endure as the alternative choices are not that much better.

owebmaster3• 1 year ago

Why are the alternatives not better if, as you say (and I agree), react solves its own problems (accidental complexity)? not some essential complexity (at least not anymore).

State management and optimized DOM manipulation can be achieved with vanillajs nowadays and I'm not saying that as a purist, it is just good enough that React is not needed. To help a bit with the ergonomics, I use lit-html/uhtml for the templating but they are both based on template literals, a native JS feature.

fabioz• 1 year ago

Isn't `useContext` the builtin React alternative to that issue?

Already__Taken• 1 year ago

Yes but they will rerender from where the context was created not where it's used, so you can get a lot of UI renders.

I think the new memo compiler address' this in the most complicated way possible.

owebmaster3• 1 year ago

Yes but they will rerender from where the context was created

Wow that's really bad and make it basically useless.

SebastianKra2• 1 year ago

That's simply not true.

  function MyProvider({ children }) {
    const [value, setValue] = useState()
    return <Context.Provider value={value}>
      {children} 
    </Context.Provider>
  }

In the above example, the Provider re-renders, but it's children remain unchanged.

0xfffafaCrash3• 1 year ago

React doesn’t really concern itself with state management. Of course it has context, state, and props but the mental model for it predates focus on fine grained reactivity in frontends — useSyncExternalStore helps enable others to fill that void in v17+. Fine grained reactivity was notably also missed in the development of web components — only now is there a tc39 proposal for signals (in its early stages).

Jotai, mentioned briefly in the article, may not be built in but is as intuitive as signals get and isn’t even tied to React as of later versions.

I’ve very rarely met a state management problem in clientside state management where neither tanstack query (for io related state) nor jotai (for everything else) are the best answer technically speaking. The rare exceptions are usually best served by xstate if you want to model things with FSMs or with zustand if you actually need a reducer pattern. There’s a tiny niche where redux makes sense (you want to log all state transitions or use rewind or are heavily leaning on its devtools) but it was the first to get popular and retains relevance due to the fact that everyone has used it.

You can go a long way with useContext and useReducer/useState but few would opt for alternatives if jotai came batteries included with react.

Stoids2• 1 year ago

Most UIs I've written in my career benefit from being modeled as FSMs. While I see the value proposition of the atom-based approaches, especially for basic applications, I can't help but become a bit hesitant about their scalability long-term on large teams. Part of the reason the very dogmatic Redux approach of a event dispatching + single store of truth caught on so quickly was because a lot of us had felt the pain of two-way data binding / global state with event listeners in Angular 1. I distinctly remember the horror of debugging digest loops (scope.$$phase memories) and being completely lost in the unstructured data flow. What made for a great demo became a nightmare at scale.

There's nothing stopping people from using these atom-based libraries to build more robust abstractions, but from my professional experience I tend to just see global getters and setters with useEffects / lifecycle method of your frameworks choice as a side effect sync.

Maybe my instincts are off here though and I am overly cautious. I love XState but the learning curve is rather massive and getting buy in from other team members is hard when the DX of the atom approach is so nice.

I feel like state "management" and reactivity performance are talked about a lot, when ultimately state orchestration is where I see things fall over the most.

0xfffafaCrash3• 1 year ago

I haven’t ever seen issues scaling with jotai even on very large apps working with extremely complex data structures.

I’ve seen far larger messes created in redux due to tight coupling of things across large apps to a global store and the inability to work with things like Maps and Sets or other values that are not trivially JSON serializable.

In the other direction I have seen messes with observable-based state management systems where things become far more complex and too far abstracted (how often do you really care about anything other than the latest value and maybe the previous one?) or with proxy based systems that have too much fragile magic (valtio, mobx) or require wrapping your components and going all in on oop (mobx)

To me signals hit the magic spot of reactive without being overkill and keep code testable in smaller units while retaining performance benefits of surgical updates

I like xstate in theory — it’s a good way to think about complex state transitions — but in at least half of cases in practice where you aren’t interested in a derived value, someone is storing a value/ getting the latest value or toggling a boolean and it’s just such overkill for that. The reducer pattern itself doesn’t meaningfully show up much for similar reasons. The other common cases are with fetching states (idle, loading, refetching, success, error) but you often end up wanting things like cache management or maybe even optimistic updates so eventually tanstack query covers that ground better than rolling your own.

davidkpiano• 1 year ago

Re: atoms + learning curve, this is why XState Store exists, which supports both XState-style state updates and atoms: https://stately.ai/docs/xstate-store

I also like the approach of Svelte, and realize that sometimes a full state machine isn't needed. I don't think that atoms should be used everywhere, since updating state freely without guardrails just leads to disaster long-term.

90s_dev5• 1 year ago

Never heard of Signals[1] until now, thanks. But it makes me nervous with how much influence it has from React and Vue, and the way React and Vue do things. These are not the be all end all methods of reactivity, and I can't help but think if there's going to be an official language feature implemented for this, there needs to be room for other voices to be heard that have zero influence from React/Vue. Maybe there's still time since it's Stage 1.

[1] https://github.com/tc39/proposal-signals

0xfffafaCrash3• 1 year ago

I wouldn’t say signals is coming from React. If anything React is the latest to the party and being dragged there reluctantly by where the tech community is going. They’ve mostly been resisting the movement towards signals because it undermines a lot of the arguments they have made for their virtual dom, synthetic event system, and rerender all the things dogma. Solidjs is much much more in the signals camp. Angular, Vue, Svelte, etc also recognize the need for this sort of reactivity.

React could be argued to have abandoned the fight for being the best client side framework technically (though they have dominance pragmatically). They are really all focused on Vercel’s Nextjs/SSR/SSG/RSC stuff in recent years

jazzypants2• 1 year ago

Just FYI, Signals are actually derived from Observables in KnockoutJS. React was originally created as a response to the first wave of JavaScript Frameworks which heavily relied on two-way binding-- remember the whole emphasis on "unidirectional flow"?

Signals recently became more popular as people observed the performance and DX that they made possible in SolidJS. Solid's creator, Ryan Carniato, has acted as a bit of an evangelist for them-- even working closely with the Angular team.

uallo• 1 year ago

From your own link:

The current draft is based on design input from the authors/maintainers of Angular, Bubble, Ember, FAST, MobX, Preact, Qwik, RxJS, Solid, Starbeam, Svelte, Vue, Wiz, and more…

What other voices would you like to get feedback from?

nateroling• 1 year ago

Fine-grained reactivity (ie Knockout) was a thing well before React. If anything, React was a response to the deficiencies of fine-grained reactivity.

90s_dev5• 1 year ago

According to a resonating reddit comment, Svelte isn't more popular because it's simply too late; React and Vue got there early and got good enough, so Svelte can't really get as big as them.

I think this might be true short term, but long term it means Svelte has more room to evolve with the web and with JavaScript itself, since fewer users means more room to move fast and break things, like Zig can and does. And Zig isn't dead.

This gives me a little encouragement for my personal web reactivity project. I'm confident I came up with a reactivity model that's technically innovative, which does and is what I always wanted React to do and be. But being so late to the game, my hypothetical framework has no chance to gain traction. I say hypothetical because I haven't even started making it yet. It would be built on the Ref class[1] that came out of my experimental work on os.90s.dev, but only last night did I finally get around to experimenting with using it with HTML[2].

The concept is to have JSX transform to allowing attributes to be given MaybeRefs and if its a ref then watch it and set the attr to the value, and just return the HTMLElement itself. This should be a good enough foundation to build an entire reactive framework around.

Having almost no users is a blessing, because it gives me the complete freedom to experiment with this relatively slowly. The time between creating refs and stabilizing them was a few months. The time between stabilizing them and using them in that experiment was another month. It'll probably be another month before I get a functioning non-trivial app working with it. And another few months before it's cleaned up enough to be both generic and convenient.

Maybe this should have been a blog post. I never know.

[1] https://90s.dev/guides/refs.html

[2] https://github.com/sdegutis/bubbles/commit/cde2bea973b22538f...

ricardobeat2• 1 year ago

The concept is to have JSX transform to allowing attributes to be given MaybeRefs, and if its a ref then watch it and set the attr to the value

That is essentially what Signals are, including directly setting .textContent when possible.

This model actually predates all of this and was used way back, in Backbone.js and other pre-react frameworks, except we didn’t have JSX or virtual DOM at the time.

90s_dev5• 1 year ago

I remember Backbone using two-way bindings, which I think is more complicted than what my experiment does:

    const el = document.createElement(tag)

    for (const [k, v] of Object.entries(attrs)) {
      if (v instanceof Ref) {
        el [k] = v.val
        v.watch(val => el[k] = val)
      }
      else {
        el[k] = v
      }
    }

benmccann• 1 year ago

It's neither true that Svelte has few users or that we can easily break things. Tons of sites are built with Svelte like Yahoo Finance and Apple Music. Svelte 5 was the only big change in syntax in the past five years and we made sure that there's a good migration tool, etc. to minimize the amount of hardship and upgrade might cause. As a result the majority of users have already upgraded to Svelte 5.

That being said, Svelte absolutely does continue to innovate. We'll be introducing a new async primitive, RPC mechanism, etc. in the near future: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1dATE70wlHc

jmogly2• 1 year ago

I think svelte, especially now svelte 5, will “win” because it doesn’t fight with vanilla web dev it just beautifully supplements the short comings of rolling plain html, css, js.

This is coming from someone who is no way a front end dev, but svelte 5 in particular is just so easy to get started with and has the most sane approach to reactivity and syntax compared to the other frameworks I have tried, and it seems like it is in the best position to grow with the web as well.

90s_dev5• 1 year ago

I am surrounded by geniuses.

So I will stop trying to be like them. I can't.

I'll just keep my head down and write my little apps for fun.

edflsafoiewq• 1 year ago

IIUC this is how VanJS works.

  // Create new Ref
  const r = van.state(0)
  // derive functions as adapt/watch/multiplex.
  // Implicitly depends on any Ref it uses and re-runs when they change.
  const r2 = van.derive(() => 2 * r.val)
  van.derive(() => console.log('r2 is ' + r2.val))
  
  // Changing the value doesn't update r2 or print immediately, it schedules
  // a batch update when all derives will get recomputed.
  r.val = 3
  // ...So 'r2 is 6' won't be printed here.
  r.val++
  
  // Refs can be used in a hyperscript-style DOM builder.
  // This creates a regular HTMLElement, with a regular Text node where r2 goes,
  // but it holds onto that Text node behind the scenes and automatically
  // updates it when r2 changes.
  const {p} = van.tags
  document.appendChild(p("The value is ", r2))

90s_dev5• 1 year ago

Man I don't even know why I write any code anymore. Everyone's already done everything.

haburka• 1 year ago

I would recommend to not make a web framework with the idea of it being popular, like competitive with react. It’s much better to make a library that works with react / vue / svelte and see if that can become popular.

There are enough web frameworks. If you make a blog post where you state what limits you have with the current state of web technology, and you describe it really well, I’m sure someone will be able to point out how there is a web framework that deals with that. Or a way to implement that in current web frameworks.

CharlieDigital2• 1 year ago

Man people are really missing out on Vue and Pinia.

Pinia is so low ceremony and "just works"; it makes state management concerns practically disappear.

alabhyajindal• 1 year ago

I had never heard of Pinia. Visited their landing page [1] and there's a button selling a course on how to use the library. There's a CTA for the course when you go to the Guide page as well. Very strange!

1. https://pinia.vuejs.org

aitchnyu• 1 year ago

In 2018, I taught Vue workshops where I memorized a Vue enabled html page and went through links from the homepage. Since then, Vue took permutations of options/composition, js/ts, Vite/whatever and deferred documentation to Vue teaching sponsors.

CharlieDigital2• 1 year ago

Try it. No course needed. Whatever you learn in the first hour scales to the 100th hour.

That's the best kind of simple.

ezarowny• 1 year ago

If you're writing Svelte code today and you need shared state, I would recommend you start by looking at the Context API (https://svelte.dev/docs/svelte/context). For manual control of data updates you'll probably still want to use Stores (SvelteKit does!) but I'd start with Context first.

mhh__3• 1 year ago

I also like svelte quite a lot although I was/am genuinely a bit confused as to how to join svelte to some external [state machine / business logic]. I ended up with runes basically infecting the entire codebase, but presumably a proper boundary must be possible?

tonyhart7• 1 year ago

Yeah, I try build an dashboard admin that has complex state passing into each other

and its not elegant, lets call it that way

Leftium• 1 year ago

For complex things, I came up with a pattern that stores the state externally from the components in a single centralized file. So the components just become simple shells that render the state and forward events. (All the complex business logic can be tested without the DOM/headless browser.)

I call it "nation state" because it groups sets of related variables together in a scope between local and global.

I implemented the pattern with Svelte runes, but I think it could be implemented with anything; even React.

I went into more detail here (with live example/code): https://www.reddit.com/r/sveltejs/comments/1dgf8la/comment/l...

jmogly2• 1 year ago

Yes this is the way to do it, global-ish state files with getters and setters. I’ll have a .svelte.ts file (or a few of them) with a typed state object, maybe a function for refreshing it or syncing it with a backend api, import the state all over the place.

Might be an anti pattern but it works really well.

Ameo• 1 year ago

runes basically infecting the entire codebase

Yeah sadly the stores the author talks about here aren't the right way to do things anymore in modern svelte and they're all-in on Runes.

Stores were a big part of the reason I liked svelte; they were so conceptually simple, extensible with plain JS, and made interop outside of Svelte trivial without the Svelte magic leaking out.

They're still in Svelte, but they mix poorly with runes and are basically unsupported in runes mode. I opened up a bug about store behavior not working like it used to when mixing with runes, and the response was pretty much "yeah we don't expect it to work like that anymore when runes mode is enabled".

mhh__3• 1 year ago

I don't even mind the runes I just don't get the impression from the docs that anyone has a clear feeling about how to actually use them e.g. forget the toy examples, suppose an alien has given me clump of minified business logic and we have to make it work.

defraudbah• 1 year ago

the end example is the same as zustand, no?

svelte has earned it's place and the more people use it - the better. I couldn't find a reason to switch, same with ember in early days, same with any handlebars go/php/rust etc. We live in the era when it's enough to learn one UI framework and just ship things.

Good post though, I wish it had more examples so

fny• 1 year ago

My only gripe with Svelte is that it’s not JavaScript.

There’s an arcane layer of $yntax to mediate and a lot of flexibility and intuition is lost as a result.

__s• 1 year ago

You should look at solid-js in that case, tho it uses custom jsx transform

voby.js looks neat

efilife• 1 year ago

It wasn't like this before. Try Svelte 4

FpUser• 1 year ago

For generic browser based application I am in favor and am using domain specific libraries like three.js and purposely made web components. For the rest modern javascript works just fine. I just do not see the value of those framework monstrosities and build processes. They might be solving some problems for companies of Meta's scale but on small dedicated teams in my opinion it is just waste of time and money for no tangible benefits.

EmilienCosson• 1 year ago

I think it is useful to say the blog post is using svelte 4, and the svelte 5 docs mention:

“When to use stores

Prior to Svelte 5, stores were the go-to solution for creating cross-component reactive states or extracting logic. With runes, these use cases have greatly diminished.

when extracting logic, it’s better to take advantage of runes’ universal reactivity: You can use runes outside the top level of components and even place them into JavaScript or TypeScript files (using a .svelte.js or .svelte.ts file ending) when creating shared state, you can create a $state object containing the values you need and then manipulate said state state.svelte

export const userState = $state({ name: 'name', /* ... */ }); App

<p>User name: {userState.name}</p> <button onclick={() => { userState.name = 'new name'; }}> change name </button>

Stores are still a good solution when you have complex asynchronous data streams or it’s important to have more manual control over updating values or listening to changes. If you’re familiar with RxJs and want to reuse that knowledge, the $ also comes in handy for you.”

https://svelte.dev/docs/svelte/stores#When-to-use-stores

philipwhiuk• 1 year ago

Svelte stores just sound like adding Redux to React, which used to be in vogue then stopped being in vogue and I guess this blog post marks them being back in vogue.

digianarchist• 1 year ago

The blog post compares an example using hooks to pass in a state and update function to a child component. It then compares that to a Svelte component which contains a state variable.

Those two examples aren't equivalent because any parent component wrapping the Svelte component doesn't have access to the state whilst App (in the React example) does.

For the Svelte example to be equivalent, the component would have to export the store.

A minor gripe but the hooks vs Svelte state is pretty minor issue in itself.

SebastianKra2• 1 year ago

There's an issue when integrating Signals (or Stores) directly into templates. TypeScript becomes unable to track how bindings relate to each other.

This is described in the Solid documentation: https://docs.solidjs.com/configuration/typescript#control-fl...

In my experience with data-binding, these instances of disabling the typesystem accumulated, and became a frequent source of bugs.

So even though I hope for Signals to catch on, I believe the best way of connection to them will still be React:

  function Output({ userSignal }) {
    const user = useSignal(userSignal)
    if (!user) return <span>No user found</span>
    return <span>{user.firstName} {user.lastName}</span> /* TypeScript knows that user must be defined */
  }

I like Svelte more than React (it's store management)

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