Walkers' Sensations Poppadoms vs. HMRC: The Chip of Theseus

https://www.ft.com/content/3a64f96e-3214-48ba-9da4-76b3fb7ab8c1

by robinhouston • 1 year ago

36 55 1 year ago

ft.com

pcrh• 1 year ago

https://archive.ph/8pSEx

dp-hackernews• 1 year ago

Quite an amusing account.

laidoffamazon• 1 year ago

I care not when you call me big poppadom

Huge credit to whoever came up with this subtitle

normie30002• 1 year ago

This article implies that Discos are not crisps. Surely this is madness?

sph• 1 year ago

Reminds me of McVitie's challenge to get the Jaffa Cake on the zero VAT tariff for cakes, even if technically it's a biscuit (that carries a higher VAT rate).

McVitie's won with the astute argument that, unlike other biscuits, when a Jaffa Cake goes stale it becomes hard like a cake, not soft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes#Legal_status

comrade12342• 1 year ago

I always thought poppadoms were made from fermented lentil dough, so I looked it up and they're made with basically anything - even potato!

arprocter• 1 year ago

My assumption was chickpeas, but evidently anything starchy works

kjellsbells• 1 year ago

A papad-like thing can be made from potato flour, but I struggle to equate it to a poppadom since potatoes are not native to the subcontinent. The classic papad is made from urad lentil flour. They are infamously tricky to make from scratch. Anecdotally, all the Indians whose houses I've been to use the brand that has the little boy photo on the sleeve and Lijjat papad brand in Hindi script in big letters across the front.

TheOtherHobbes• 1 year ago

I have no comment on the legalities, but I have to insist that the lime and coriander variety are amazing.

petesergeant2• 1 year ago

I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description ["potato crisps"], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the [delicious snack] involved in this case is [quite definitely] that

comrade12342• 1 year ago

I wonder why the UK has a 20% tariff on potato chips, er I mean crisps. Is it to stop from being overrun by clearly superior Irish crisps (O'Donnells Ballymaloe Relish and Cheddar in particular)?

petesergeant2• 1 year ago

by clearly superior Irish crisps

Here is a map of where they're available in the UK[0]. I think you under-estimate the cut-throat nature and absolute consumer abundance of good crisps in the wider British Isles...

0: https://stores-ballymaloefoods.ie/tesco

varispeed11• 1 year ago

Map seems to be showing distribution centres, not actual stores - at least for Tesco.

StevenWaterman• 1 year ago

Are you getting confused between tariffs and VAT? VAT is the equivalent of sales tax.

From what I can tell, the tariff on "Potatoes, Thin slices, fried or baked, whether or not salted or flavoured, in airtight packings, suitable for immediate consumption" from Ireland is 14%, reduced to 0% if they originate in Ireland https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/20052020...

fredoralive2• 1 year ago

It's Value Added Tax, which is basically a sales tax[1], not a tariff (unless you're a certain president who thinks it is?).

The idea is that VAT was supposed to apply to everything equally (AFAIK in most EU countries it does?), but applying it to some things like food, children’s clothes or books was seen as kinda a bad idea when they brought it in for the UK in the 1970s, so they don't have it (technically the do, but at a 0% rate which is a technicality only accountants care about). But with food they didn't want to apply to frivolous luxuries. Which in some cases is fairly obvious (alcohol has VAT), and snacks like crisps are also bourgeois luxuries, so get the full 20% (oh, for the days of 17.5%...). This split does lead to some interesting tax tribunal decisions, so a chocolate covered biscuit does have VAT, but a cake with a chocolate topping doesn't, leading to the famous Jaffa Cake case, or this case about rather crisp like Poppadoms made by a crisp company.

[1] Except a lot more confusing.

cjs_ac2• 1 year ago

The Upper Tribunal — having already determined potato granules to be part of the extended potato universe — didn’t like this line of argument, judging that the potato starch and granules must be combined to judge overall potatitude.

Okay, I'm sold. When I have the money, I'll get a subscription to the FT.

On a less jocular note, this article is a good reminder that, contrary to most discussion here on HN, laws aren't algorithms that the powers that be execute against the world, but are rather heuristics that courts have to interpret in the context of specific cases.

varispeed11• 1 year ago

FT occasionally publishes entertaining pieces, but make no mistake - their editorial line inherently favours the ultra wealthy and government perspectives. A classic example is their coverage of IR35, crafted to shield big consultancies from competition, not the taxpayer. They parrot government propaganda, as if their critical thinking faculties mysteriously switch off whenever they touch the topic. They favour policies and narratives that sustain the power of large players, often at the expense of small businesses, freelancers, or challengers. Don't feed the beast.

cjs_ac2• 1 year ago

As much as I agree with many of the biases of the Grauniad, I feel increasingly irritated by the blatant pandering to my sensibilities. The 'what happened' part of the article is so short on details it's barely there and the 'analysis' part is almost always just telling me who are the goodies and who are the baddies. If they quote experts, it's always an explanation of the most basic shit, because that's all the journalist understood. All of the non-elite media is like this: the analytics seem to have told them that ragebait is the only thing that gets ad revenue.

I just want to know what's going on in the world, and interesting analysis. I don't want analysis that tells me that I'm a good person, I want analysis that tells me something interesting about the world, even if I don't agree with it. If I have to pay a Bond villain to get that, so be it.

jarym• 1 year ago

So, so, true. Even more irksome when the country is faced with massive economic challenges and the politicians make choices that they seek to avoid justifying and do not appear to be in the national interest.

erikerikson• 1 year ago

Do you have a recommendation of where one should read?

twic• 1 year ago

IR35, crafted to shield big consultancies from competition, not the taxpayer

I think this is a crank belief, and my guess is that you are an aggrieved ex-contractor. But i would definitely be interested to hear more about this theory.

argsnd• 1 year ago

They cater to their readers

https://commercial.ft.com/audience/

zipy1242• 1 year ago

This is frankly not true. They have news but also opinion pieces and it is important to separate the two. It is also important to look at the specific journalist/guest who wrote it which they make sure to feature prominently at the top along with any disclosures of shares/positions.

They for example often publish articles encouraging lower taxes, but also those advocating for wealth taxes, land value taxes, estate taxes, non-dom/exit fees which are often the ones which specifically target the ultra rich.

The important thing to note is that on any financial trade, a party is on each side, and both will be reading the FT so they have a vested interest in trying to present both sides to capture this audience.

There are heavy-weight bond investors for example, who believe government debt is too high, and we need to tax the ultra-wealthy in order to reduce deficits.

intuitionist2• 1 year ago

The FT is well worth reading (regardless of anyone’s personal beliefs, it’s useful to get a sense of how the wealthy and powerful think by reading their papers) but note that the FT Alphaville blog, which published this piece, is free to read if you create an account (you don’t need to pay).

zipy1242• 1 year ago

This is not necessarily a paper read by the rich and powerful, but just by those in the finance industry/politics/academia/c-suites/board-members. It combines two key markets, objective no-nonense news pieces heavy with data and a light analysis (it's very good at separating the data from analysis/opinion) and also opinion pieces from high-influence people such as the top members of various governments, central banks and think tanks. You can read an opinion pieces from the heritage foundation, next to one written by the founders of just stop oil or other.

AStonesThrow3• 1 year ago

TIL that Walkers in England is different than Walker’s Shortbread, the latter being the makers of really tasty goods in attractive keepsake tins. I was going to pick one up as a commemoration of King Charles III.

Also, papadums are spelled differently by Indian restaurants around here, because it is, after all, in transliteration.

This was inevitable as mass-produced snack food is influenced and derived from foreign cuisine. Papadums served in a restaurant are about 6” diameter, puffy, thin and delicate. Caraway seeds and other bumps are often noticeable. Always need a good chutney to dip into.

The Indian groceries also sell shelves full of savory crispy snacks that run the gamut. I hope that Walkers can hold their niche amongst cricket fans.

fakedang2• 1 year ago

There's a lotta different varieties... There are the poppadoms, the small bites which are the subject of the article.

Then there are paapads, which are basically the thin, less bubbly, often nearly plate-sized North Indian variety, often dosed with a smattering of spice. These are fire toasted and are the ones you commonly get at your local Indian for appetizer.

Then there's the South Indian appalam/pappadam which is smaller, made of rice, and often bubbly. Those usually are not spiced and are fried, often to eat with rice meals and not alone.

In some parts of South India like Bengaluru and Calicut, you can even get pappadams made out of jackfruit. These are usually made into conical shapes and are eaten as snacks.

AStonesThrow3• 1 year ago

Again, in transliteration, those names are all different ways of spelling the same word, borrowed even from Sri Lankan Tamil, even. It is unclear whether they are descriptive of a variety, or they are just varying because a different chef in a different region wrote in Latin characters in a different way.

பப்படம் → पापड़

The English Wikipedia covers the name's variants. And the jackfruit variety.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papadam#Etymology

It is not my favorite appetizer, but the restaurants all seem to prepare them about the same. This is in the American Southwest with restaurants advertising cuisine of North India (vegetarian), Punjab, New Delhi, Pakistan, etc.

They are probably the most delicate crisp I've ever eaten. They crumble when I breathe on them or if they touch a drop of chutney. I wouldn't purchase them in a grocery store, for fear they would already be in crumbly pieces.

masfuerte• 1 year ago

In the first tribunal Walkers argued that Sensations are not crisps because:

They are not ready for human consumption

I understand why they made the argument but I couldn't understand how. I tracked down the judgement from last year:

Walkers initially argued that the products were designed to be used with dips, chutneys and pickles, and as a side with a meal. On this basis, they contended that the products required further preparation before consumption and so did not fall within Note 5.
In the hearing, Walkers accepted that there was nothing on the consumer packaging that stated that any preparation was required. It was agreed that the packaging would be required to state any such necessary preparation. We also noted that Walkers’ own promotional material showed people eating the product directly from the package, without any dips etc, and without a meal. On that basis, and in the light of case law on ‘preparation’ in this context, Walkers agreed that they were no longer relying on this argument.

fanf2• 1 year ago

There’s a similar thing with chocolate: cooking chocolate is zero-rated, but VAT is due on eating chocolate. They are basically the same products: the main differences are the packaging (presence or absence of cooking instructions) and where they are shelved (with the cake ingredients or with the sweets).

ChrisMarshallNY• 1 year ago

How can they talk about Walker's Poppadom Chips, without mentioning Poppadom Elvis[0]?

Once you've seen it, it's hard to get out of your head.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QduTLFILORY

AndrewStephens• 1 year ago

Damn you, that’s going be stuck in my head all day.

Walkers' Sensations Poppadoms vs. HMRC: The Chip of Theseus

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