About the future of Thunderbird

https://blog.mozilla.org/beyond-the-code/2012/07/09/about-the-future-of-thunderbird/

by ttaubert • 14 years ago

115 77 14 years ago

blog.mozilla.org

BasDirks• 14 years ago

"To be more specific, Mozilla will no longer focus on developing innovations for Thunderbird but will keep it safe and stable."

I am quite content with Thunderbird as it is and welcome this news.

uyhayuy• 14 years ago

Happy to heard this, people working into extendible software should work into core apis and let the community build the rest. I was with very little hope when I saw the thread title. Thunderbid is the last application on wich I want a change. I was/am a Firefox fan, but I'm currently using chrome all day..

rhizome5• 14 years ago

So couldn't they have avoided all this by saying it's going into "maintenance mode" or something? Software development history is full of packages that have fallen into bugfix-only status. Sheesh, what a lot of drama.

hub_2• 14 years ago

Thunderbird being open source, it can continue to thrive. Anybody can contribute. That's more than just maintenance mode.

mbrubeck3• 14 years ago

That's pretty much what the original announcement did say, if you go beyond the headlines and read the announcement itself: http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/06/so-thats-it-for-thunderbird...

dfc4• 14 years ago

I think the chat integration is the last remaining puzzle piece. If thunderbird had builtin chat and builtin gpg support I'd be content. I have never understood why smime was baked in but gpg was not. Enigmail should not need to exist and unlike any other ff/tb plugins it used to be a pain with amd64...

rurounijones• 14 years ago

Now that you mention it, yes builtin gpg support would be the last thing that I would like to see in it before they put it into maintenance mode.

melicerte2• 14 years ago

What about better Caldav support and Implementation of the Carddav ?

Chat Integration, who cares when you don't even have a decent addressbook integration?

cookiecaper6• 14 years ago

Enigmail works great here. I don't really see a need to bring it mainline, perhaps other than encouraging adoption. I use 64-bit and have used Enigmail for 3+ years without issue now -- I think it's probably safe at this point, especially if you can install from your package manager (as I can with an AUR helper on Arch).

re_todd• 14 years ago

Agreed. Reliability is extremely important with email programs, so I prefer this class of software be very conservative.

wmf• 14 years ago

It seems like the spin is just making the situation worse.

cleverjake• 14 years ago

"We have a solid plan to support Thunderbird until the second half of 2013 and are discussing how we support it beyond that date"

Kindof glossing over the issue, no?

omh• 14 years ago

Exactly. If the answer is "Thunderbird is alive for about another year" then we may as well start looking for replacements now.

beagle34• 14 years ago

Because, you know, the day they stop committing, is the day that thunderbird stops working and takes all your mail store with it.

Oh, actually, that's not true! I'm still using TB3 installed with my Ubuntu 10.10, and there's nothing missing there. I'm sure that the latest 2013 TB is going to be usable through 2015 at least. No need to look for replacement now.

gavinlynch• 14 years ago

Thunderbird has been dead to me ever since they completely botched search in Thunderbird 3.

ibotty• 14 years ago

interesting article. it does not really convince me though. very nice to get an official but informal statement.

SmileyKeith2• 14 years ago

Seem's like they're trying to back peddle because they realize how many people like Thunderbird.

esbwhat• 14 years ago

I think people reporting it just overstated the news that feature development will be stopped in saying it's dead. Mozilla's plan seems consistent.

mbrubeck3• 14 years ago

Back-pedal on what? Both the original leaked email and the official blog post said that Mozilla would "adapt the Thunderbird release and governance model in a way that allows both ongoing security and stability maintenance..."

It was TechCrunch who somehow translated that into "So, that's it for Thunderbird." :/

SmileyKeith2• 14 years ago

You're right "back-pedal" was not the correct wording. More like address how it was received.

ori_b• 14 years ago

So, in other words, they don't care about it. However, enough people need it, so they can't kill it yet. For now, they have it on life support.

ChuckMcM2• 14 years ago

I find this fascinating because it speaks to the challenge of software that is 'done'.

Most people are familiar with software that is 'good enough to ship, could do more' where the software goes through release cycles and gets features added Etc. But sometimes, and this more common with embedded programmers, the programming is 'done.' All the features you could reasonably want are implemented, bugs as they come up are swatted, but basically the software itself is as it is and will be forever. Its done.

I expect to see more of this over the coming decade. While it is certainly true you can reimagine and reimagine, and of course you might want to port from form factor or OS to another, but the kinds of things that non-developer's do with computers is like a monte carlo plot getting more and more samples.

Personally I think its a Good Thing, as it might stem some of the gratuitous changes we see on things. It also has the chance of making the world a bit more stable.

bane• 14 years ago

software that is 'done'.

Kind of interesting that this doesn't appear to have explicititely happened very often before with email software -- but intuition might imply that it should have.

ChuckMcM2• 14 years ago

So far it has been much more common with say, networking code. Boring code which does what it does, and well you just don't need to rewrite it. Feature clamor in mail applications has gone way down with web based mail tools and smart phones. Much of the change in web browsers has gone 'internal' where its about faster JS execution or WebGL or something else like that.

Interesting times.

antidoh2• 14 years ago

It should have happened with Thunderbird some time ago. Thunderbird is one of those programs where my heart would sink as soon as I learned there was a new update queued up. They always break something.

ars• 14 years ago

> Kind of interesting that this doesn't appear to have explicititely happened very often before with email software -- but intuition might imply that it should have.

It most certainly did.

Pine

Mutt

Eudora

All are basically done, and are maintenance only. Pine turned into Alpine which added unicode, and that's about it.

There is actually a lot of software where this happens. Tex, and gzip come to mind immediately. I'm sure there is more.

comex• 14 years ago

Speaking of features, does Thunderbird have a built-in Gmail-like conversation view yet? There's an extension, but eight years after Gmail, do people really still not want this enough for it to be a core feature? Many other email clients have it, and it's much nicer than a message list.

Disclaimer: I haven't used Thunderbird for years, but I'm not too satisfied with the clients I'm currently using.

mburns• 14 years ago

Still implemented as an add-on.

cdi• 14 years ago

Thunderbird is far from 'done'. They had plans to replace somewhat problematic Mork format with SQLite based storage since 2008, and it was never implemented.

nodata• 14 years ago

Software can't be "done". Webmail was done, then gmail came along. Phone calls were done, then google voice came along. Mobile phones were done, then iPhone came along.

conradfr• 14 years ago

Ok, Thunderbird is dead :(

sooooo please can someone at Mozilla fixes this YEARS old bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=531002 before TB's funeral ?

Also, thread conversations sucks and don't properly show new mails.

noselasd• 14 years ago

Are there any stats around on how many people are using Thunderbird ? There really arn't that many usable email clients around - yet, perhaps next to the phone, email is really a primary way of doing business. It seems Outlook got most of the business users..

azakai• 14 years ago

> Are there any stats around on how many people are using Thunderbird ?

The article mentions over 20 million.

5teev• 14 years ago

Outlook has a captive audience. I suspect email in non-business contexts will fade from common use before a decent email client comes along. Or maybe it will be for "fmail" instead.

combataircraft2• 14 years ago

The real question should be: Where the hell is the open source alternative of Gmail?

beagle34• 14 years ago

Well, it's in your editor, waiting to be written! github just raised $100M to host it for you as well!

Seriously, there are a lot of open source mail servers/client, some of which might be good enough for you, e.g. http://cworth.org/sup/a-mail-client-for-geeks/

The main problem with running a mail server is properly keeping it up, secure, spam free, and trusted by peers to actually send email. These are not exclusively _software engineering_ problems with the existing (SMTP/RFC822-based) infrastructure. Rather, there's a large management component here, that is unlikely to be solved by software alone (open or closed source).

This will only change with a radical infrastructure change, along the lines of djb's Internet Mail 2000 proposal. Until then, if you want your mail server to remain reliable without working hard yourself, you'll have to delegate it (to google or hundreds of other available services).

combataircraft2• 14 years ago

@beagle3, I'm not as powerful as Mozilla. They are letting Google occupy whole the internet by not creating an alternative for Gmail.

jeltz3• 14 years ago

The most advanced open source IMAP based webmail was RoundCube last time I checked. Not really gmail, but works well enough at least for small to normal sized mailboxes.

http://www.roundcube.net/

asadotzler2• 14 years ago

How does roundcube compare with Zimbra?

webwanderings• 14 years ago

At the very least it confirms that their email client is not going to be part of their Social Browser:

http://blog.mozilla.org/futurereleases/2012/07/06/bringing-s...

sciurus• 14 years ago

The original post announcing the change in Thunderbird's status, written by the Chair of the Mozilla Foundation:

http://blog.lizardwrangler.com/2012/07/06/thunderbird-stabil...

acqq• 14 years ago

And the most relevant:

https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird/Proposal:_New_Release_a...

Pelayo• 14 years ago

I know their strategy is "everything online", but if 20+ million people are using it (from the article) then that market doesn't look like such a waste of time, does it?

beagle34• 14 years ago

I suspect that unlike Firefox, which actually brings in money (mostly from search engine referrals, specifically from Google), Thunderbird doesn't bring in any significant money, if at all.

Mozilla is a non-profit (or is it a not-for-profit?), but I guess they're trying to make each project self-sustaining, and if thunderbird doesn't provide any bacon (pure speculation on my part here), then -- yes, that market might look like a waste of time.

asadotzler2• 14 years ago

Money is not why Mozilla made this decision.

For anyone working on software at the scale Mozilla is, this truth will be recognizable: focus can be a lot more important than financing.

Mozilla has and will continue to invest heavily in projects which have no or minimal revenue associated with them. Sustainability matters, of course, but there is no rule that every project or product must be individually sustainable.

cpeterso2• 14 years ago

If Mozilla is looking to reallocate R&D resources, I would suggest retiring SeaMonkey.

Wilya• 14 years ago

Given that SeaMonkey was initially (and still is, as far as I know) a community-driven effort to keep alive Mozilla-the-browser after the foundation had decided to stop supporting it, I suspect there is very little to be gained on that front.

cpeterso2• 14 years ago

I didn't know that. Thanks. <:)

johngalt• 14 years ago

What are the good alternatives for a lightweight IMAP email client? Outlook is pudgy and wants Exchange too badly.

jeltz3• 14 years ago

There is Evolution that is worth taking a look at. But it was buggy and had problems with large mailboxes last time I used it (2 years ago?).

cookiecaper6• 14 years ago

Even Ubuntu, which replaced Pidgin with the very inferior Empathy so they could be more "Gnomey", gave up on Evolution. I don't know that there's too much hope left for that one.

hub_2• 14 years ago

Thunderbird. If you like how it is now, it is not gonna stop.

Folks, remember, the source code will be here, community contributor will still exist and contribute, etc.

andrewbinstock• 14 years ago

Drat, the best of the bunch was Eudora. But when Qualcomm abandoned it and turned it over to Mozilla, it became a lost child, stranded between its former self and Thunderbird.

That Eudora and now Thunderbird should be end-of-lifed makes for very few good free options.

rlpb• 14 years ago

Mulberry (https://www.mulberrymail.com/) is, IMHO, the best IMAP client ever written, but from an IMAP perspective (and not necessarily a GUI perspective).

I gave up on Thunderbird when it started to demand most of my system memory. I switched back to mutt.

jaylevitt• 14 years ago

That's some serious newspeak, Mozilla...

"Thunderbird is not dead. We have announced a change in the way we develop new features for Thunderbird."

... in the sense of "not doing that anymore".

acabal2• 14 years ago

I'm pretty happy with this actually, but still a bit worried.

Happy, because for once a company didn't see a perfectly good--but decade-old--piece of software and think, "Gee, this has been around for a decade and it hasn't changed, let's RE-INVENT EVERYTHING!!!" (See: Gnome 3, Windows 8). Thunderbird is stable, works, and does its job excellently; no need to turn a wheel into a square just because it's old.

On the other hand, there is still some room for improvement in Thunderbird: Gmail integration is kind of hacky and gross-looking (A "[Gmail]" folder? Really?), it could use better Linux desktop integration (notification icons, OSD bubbles, etc.--all of these kind of work, but in half-assed way, I've found). And of course, the ever-important security updates. Even stable software needs security updates on occasion, and someone has to provide that.

So with that said: kudos to Mozilla for not undertaking change just for the sake of change like so many other big software projects have of late; but I hope Thunderbird gets just a little more polish before it's placed atop its permanent pedestal, and I hope someone sticks around to keep it secure for its second decade of life.

dfc4• 14 years ago

The gmail folder is not thunderbird's fault. Its google's imap implementation. If you configure it correctly you should not see it.

bhrgunatha• 14 years ago

How do you configure Thunderbird to remove the [Gmail] folder. I can select which subfolders I subscribe to - but still the root [Gmail] folder is always there.

acabal2• 14 years ago

You can hide it, but "Drafts," "Sent Mail," and "Trash" are under the "[Gmail]" folder. (Even though there's a duplicate and empty "Trash" folder above the root.) I check those frequently so it has to stay. I'm pretty sure Thunderbird hacks around some Gmail quirks already, they may as well hack around this one too while they're at it!

quicksilver03• 14 years ago

The [Gmail] folder is the result of IMAP being an afterthought for Google (but yes, Thunderbird could be better at hiding it).

melicerte2• 14 years ago

I'm cross-posting here the comment I added to the mozilla blog:

[quote] Firefox went to live because of the IE dominance in the corporate and private world. In the same idea, Thunderbird went to live to offer an alternative to the Exchange/Outlook pair domination (and is still widely used in the corporate world).

We have a few very good alternative to Exchange outside (Kerio and Zimbra for instance) but Thunderbird lacks good Card/CalDav support which is a feature request that Mozilla has completely fail to deliver. And that’s were the real innovation was (think about it twice, please). Instead, we are seeing Thunderbird chat coming in. “Great”. Are you kidding?

Furthermore, I don’t get Mozilla communication ATM. When I hear “What Thunderbird users have in common is the need for a very stable and secure email product – first and foremost.”, I just think the guy saying that is making fun of the users.

Finally, as I said yesterday on Baker’s blog (comments), Mozilla should remove the Donate link on its website, as long as the long term goals are as unclear as they are now.

[/quote]

I also think that the decision to stop Thunderbird is based on a falacy: WebMail does not make e-mail clients obsolete, or even less important.

About the future of Thunderbird

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