Wisdom from Marcus Aurelius

https://www.gurwinder.blog/p/wisdom-from-marcus-aurelius

by paulpauper • 2 years ago

22 18 2 years ago

I bought his book meditations about 20 years ago and just got around to reading it last month.

I made it to my chapter 3 we're in he says something to the effect of "I have saved all these old scrolls from Greek and Roman philosophers to read in my old age and now that I'm there I know that I never will"

Ironic.

He is known as the last of the good emperors, because he was a bad emperor who swt his insane son up to be the next one

jkmcf• 2 years ago

Good emperor, bad father? Definitely a good example against primogeniture.

readthenotes12• 2 years ago

A well-read person I know said that he actually was a bad emperor, in that his attacks on the Germanic tribes are what actually united them and strengthen them.

hprotagonist2• 2 years ago

Stoicism, more than some other philosophies, seems to lend itself towards being coopted for quietism.

That the most often quoted ancient stoic author was Imperator Caesar Marcus Aurelius Antoninus Augustus makes it hard to ignore this.

"Do not indulge in dreams of having what you have not, but reckon up the chief of the blessings you do possess, and then thankfully remember how you would crave for them if they were not yours." may well be good advice, but "trust me, who would know better than I, the Emperor, the benefits of staying humble and making your peace with your low position?" makes it ring just a little hollow.

"Know your place, literal plebs", indeed.

keybored• 2 years ago

Counter-argument: Serenity Prayer. Stoicism isn’t about giving up.

The Buddha was also a Quietist I guess on metaphysics:

So, Malunkyaputta, remember what is undeclared by me as undeclared, and what is declared by me as declared… And why are they undeclared by me? Because they are not connected with the goal, are not fundamental to the holy life. They do not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calming, direct knowledge, self-awakening, Unbinding. That’s why they are undeclared by me.

https://buddhaweekly.com/four-questions-buddha-not-answer-co...

Presumably he knew a lot more metaphysics than he ever told.

But he was also a noble (Prince) so… :)

hprotagonist2• 2 years ago

You might be interested in what else the author of the Serenity Prayer had to say.

"moral man, immoral society" and "the irony of american history" are both very worth your time.

throwaway35777• 2 years ago

Stoicism was philosophy marketed to and practiced by the Roman elites, so that Logos reinforced the social hierarchy is not surprising.

That being said, the philosophy has many practical lessons to teach. Meditation and philosophy helped me personally through a long illness.

exe342• 2 years ago

It's a bit of a stretch to call Epictetus part of the elite - he's was a slave.

ris• 2 years ago

Weren't Marcus Aurelius' writings only ever written as personal notes and never intended for publication?

exe342• 2 years ago

That's right. What a lot of people don't realise is that Marcus wasn't giving you advice to stand down. He was exhorting himself to be a good man, to stop craving more, not to let himself get drawn into excess. He didn't write a book. He performed a regular mental exercise where he reminded himself of the values he wanted to uphold and how he would want to react when such circumstances that he just got through were to reoccur. What you are reading is his personal journal. A notebook. The benefit of Stoicism isn't in reading his notebook, but in doing the same exercise that he put himself through.

If you want to learn from a teacher, read Discources from Epictetus. If you want to hear it from an eccentric uncle, read Seneca. If you want to see a master in the middle of his training, read Marcus Aurelius.

Red_Tarsius2• 2 years ago

That's a complete mischaracterization of the stoic philosophy. I don't even know where to begin and I don't have the time to write a detailed comment now so I just want to make a few points:

1) That quote comes from his private diary. We don't know if he ever meant to share those ideas to total strangers. If you read it, you'll find that many passages are open to misinterpretation because we lack the historical context and it feels like it was written for an audience of one. He didn't choose the title "meditations", it's just what the translators and scholars used to refer to his collected works.

2) Marcus Aurelius likely didn't write that quote from the luxury of his own palace. Those writings come from his time at the frontlines of the Marcomannic Wars which lasted almost as long as his own reign. The bulk of his writing was probably written in modern Serbia.

3) Many stoic role models are anything but quiet. They die for what they believe in. They understand their own role, accept their fate (amor fati) and pursue it to the end. Cato the Younger died as a political martyr against Caesar.

4) Epictetus is another major figure in stoic philosophy. He was a disabled slave from modern Turkey. He shares many of the viewpoints expressed by the emperor, which is why stoicism is such a compelling philosophy. For something to inspire both the rich and poor, the strong and weak, there must be something to it.

giraffe_lady• 2 years ago

Ada Palmer, who is a scholar of the history of philosophy, seems to more or less agree with hprotagonist here.

https://dailystoic.com/the-transformation-of-stoicism-over-t...

https://www.exurbe.com/stoicisms-appeal-to-the-rich-and-powe...

murm• 2 years ago

To me, it's his position that makes those words seem more credible. Once you hit the peak and have everything one could dream of you lose your illusions and realize that the craving still goes on and it's much more wise to just count your blessings. If you would hear those words coming from some poor pleb you would doubt that "They just don't know what they're talking about, how could they know? They're poor and don't have anything. Of course money and status and power is the answer?"

Also, I'm not sure if it was intended as advice to anyone other than himself. I was under the impression that Meditations was his private reflections towards the end of his life, not intended for publication.

Faelian2• 2 years ago

I just read "Windows from Marcus Aurelius". Guess I need to spend some time AFK

moritzwarhier• 2 years ago

Stoic Edition

deputy• 2 years ago

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Braini• 2 years ago

Obligatory Krazam https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7qjN3KF8U&t=94s

(One of their best videos imho)

Wisdom from Marcus Aurelius

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