Ask HN: Does anyone else hate consulting on a per hour basis?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3974249

by relaunched • 14 years ago

10 9 14 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I have my own startup and I have worked for other startups in the past. Consulting has allowed me to work about 1/4 to 1/2 time from home, while still allocating a good amount of time to my startup. However, I've often found myself justifying my hours to the client and am levied with more and more forms of hours documentation.

I'm disgusted with the whole thing. Hourly billing is hard enough because even when I'm asked to complete tasks outside of my realm of expertise, I have trouble billing for my learning curve. On top of that, I'm working on an under-producing e-commerce site and I see the figures, I'm sure money is tight for my client. However, I find myself disgusted, because I'm working less, doing less-than my all, because my client isn't willing to pay for the time. To add insult to injury, the client is non-technical, so he doesn't see the value in anything but more sales.

Have other people run into this problem? Is this how most hourly consulting gigs go, or is it just my client? Did you switch to project related fees? Drop consulting for a salary job? Any advice would help.

yashchandra• 14 years ago

I prefer daily rate instead of hourly. Clients are usually little more flexible with daily billing. But you of course have to make sure you work your alloted 8-9 hours max. Anything more, you charge extra. The beauty of daily rate is that you will get paid even if some days you worked only for 7 hours. You manage your time accordingly. SOme days you work extra to make up.

brudgers• 14 years ago

(My work isn't in software): But, hourly works for some types of projects, and the key is to set the bar for what is your fault reasonably high, e.g. I bill at my hourly rate for driving to and from a meeting.

The projects which can be problematic are those which create death by 1000 cuts...an hour here and an hour their when no progress is made.

The most important thing is to select clients who are educated in regards to the costs going in. I will give them a fairly realistic estimate of my hours based on their description of the scope. The key is to educate the client when working hourly.

That's not to say I don't take work at fixed fee, but the project and client have to be right.

rmATinnovafy2• 14 years ago

To me it sounds like the client has convinced you that his problems are worth more than your time.

You are actually defending his side of the story.

...On top of that, I'm working on an under-producing e-commerce site and I see the figures, I'm sure money is tight for my client....

You drank the Kool-aid.

Go back and negotiate on a per day basis. Do not let any insecurity about your work creep in. If the client barks (he will), then tough luck. Keep your ground and dont move.

He will either fire you or find somebody else. A tech-clueless business person will think twice before hiring someone else if the project is more than half way done.

Also, the client is technical. The person is building an e-commerce site!

Knows that internet + website + products = money.

You are the key to his/her plans. He/she may not know how to code, but does understand how things work.

He/she is just playing dumb to get you to lower the prices. Its working.

You need to develop your hustle, or else your startup wont make it.

Remember: They have your money on their pockets. It your job to get it. Dont break any laws, dont be immoral/unethical. But get that money.

Good luck.

relaunched• 14 years ago

Thanks. That puts it in perspective. All I have is my time and my experience.

I guess you are either doing the hustling or getting hustled. And I know which one I'd rather be.

rmATinnovafy2• 14 years ago

If you'd like to hone your skills selling just drop me a line to:

rm at innovafy dot com

I'll gladly help you out.

RobGR• 14 years ago

For this to work, they have to be able to use your work to make more money than you charge them. If they can't, politely explain that to them; tell them they need to think of a way to get more out of what you do, or you will have to find other clients.

It's hard, and I am bad at it, but I think doing this is key to "growing up" and being a successful freelancer.

snambi• 14 years ago

You don't get paid for vacation, learning time, marketing time, double tax and of-course no benefits. Consulting makes sense, if you can charge 2x hourly rate as you would get as a fulltime salaried employee. And you should have enough reputation in the industry that clients come to you with minimal marketing. If you don't have 2x hourly rate and marketing pull, you would be better off working as a salaried employee. Of-course, you may not "feel" that you have the "freedom". Another alternative is to work with reputed consulting companies, who can do the marketing and some of the wrestling for you. Ofcourse, they will take a portion of your earning.

debacle• 14 years ago

Yes, I prefer flat-rate billing. It leaves me to be more flexible with my time, and I don't have to argue over my timelogs.

The only caveat is that you need to be explicit when you define the project. This is hard for a lot of developers, which is why they prefer hourly billing.

Every once in a while, you get really lucky, and something that you estimated 8 hours for takes 2, in which case you can split the difference with the client and:

1. Look like a hero.

2. Make a bit of extra change.

mcgraw• 14 years ago

I don't hate it, but I have leaned away from hourly for a few reasons.

1. I prefer easing clients mind by letting them know how much they will be paying 2. I'm confident in estimating 3. I draw the line in the sand by making it clear that working outside of the contract is non-negotiable unless we mutually agree to revise/update it and the cost

Two exceptions. 1. They do not have a clear spec (or no spec). It will be hourly until that is defined. 2. Maintenance mode

Ask HN: Does anyone else hate consulting on a per hour basis?

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