Running Open Genera 2.0 on Linux

https://archives.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html

by GTP • 3 years ago

88 42 3 years ago

archives.loomcom.com

s1gnp0st• 3 years ago

We will carry this beautiful artifact forward with us until all its lessons have been learned.

There was composability and fine control in these systems that is still not present in modern systems. That's not needed for everyday consumers, but boy is it lovely when you're a programmer.

pjmlp7• 3 years ago

I feel that during the last two decades only Java and .NET ecosystems have come close to the experience, including Android and Powershell/Windows/.NET into the mix, naturally with caveats and plenty of "yes but" counter arguments.

I consider a lost opportunity not to have turned ChromeOS into a kind of Smalltalk like experience with a mix of Flutter/Dart.

Naturally one can argue Common Lisp experience with Franz and Lisp Works, Raket, or Smalltalk, are the closest to the Lisp Machine ideas, but their mainstream opportunity is now lost.

wk_end3• 3 years ago

Both the Java and .NET ecosystems are monumental (in every sense of the word) engineering accomplishments, but they don't strike me as very similar to the ultra-dynamic, introspective Lisp Machine experience. Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

FWIW, the browser (though still far off) feels closer to me, with the ability to instantly pop open a DevTools console and inspect the state of everything, as does Apple's Cocoa-based stuff from my limited exposure to it, maybe not surprising given its Smalltalk heritage.

GTP• 3 years ago

I'm too young to have ever touched a lisp machine, but I heard many opinions about them. If you used one, could you please briefly share your experience?

EdwardCoffin• 3 years ago

I think the best description of the kind of thing the lisp machines (the Symbolics ones, at least) supported is described in this thread mostly carried by Kent Pitman [1]. I'd at least read all of the comments he wrote as well as whatever else you need for the context he is posting in.

Edit: this thread too [2]

[1] https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.lisp/c/QzKZCbf-S6g/m/K...

[2] https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.lisp/c/XpvUwF2xKbk/m/X...

nickpsecurity• 3 years ago

Well, it's a combination of the hardware, OS, IDE, and language. Modern languages and VM's have caught up to many features of the Lisp machine. I've read lots of people's comments about them along with its documentation. Let me highlight a few things you might still like.

The language is highly dynamic, supports types for better speed, macros let it rewire itself to better express concepts, it is interpreted for instant development, still compiled with good performance, safer by default than many compiled languages, and you can edit the code and save state of running programs. I've just named off advantages of all kinds of programming languages all mixed into one. The flexibility was so strong that, as new paradigms were added (eg OOP, aspects), they could just bring in a library to make the language itself do that.

Aside from live debugging, my favorite feature when trying Lisp was per-function, incremental compilation.: make a change within a function, press a button, that individual function was compiled (sub-1-second), and that got loaded into the system for live interactions. I could iterate about as fast as I could think or type with the code still being fairly quick. It was mind blowing.

Today's machines have OS's in one language, supporting libraries might be in another, there's often a runtime with its own style, the app language itself for the logic, and usually one for the web browser. The mismatches between these languages can cause all kinds of headaches. Debugging them takes different tools. In a Lisp Machine, everything from the OS to the IDE to your apps were written in Lisp. IIRC they came with source. Any failure in any layer loads up in the same IDE with code in same language.

The IDE was also fully-featured for its time. Today, we have a lot of good IDE's. I don't think most of them share a language, source, and libraries with your apps, though. I'd like to see a comparison between top IDE's today and the Lisp Machine to see where today's tooling is stronger or weaker.

Those are a few things that come to mind. I assure you that my experience trying to code in native languages was way different in both development speed and debugging. Learning Python now, it's good for rapid development but not as flexible or compiled. Lisp would give me all that.

Many more ecosystems are using Python, though. By using Python, I get to use every library they build, guide they write, and maybe get paid for my code. Odds of all of that go down when using Lisp. Such social factors, along with high cost of Lisp Machines, are a huge part of why they disappeared. Less-powerful languages are going strong. If using a Lisp (eg Clojure), it's often tied to platforms written in non-Lisp languages.

LispSporks22• 3 years ago

I love building software from within the system that runs it. I really hate the edit compile run/ maybe debug cycles of popular, “modern” software development.

coliveira• 3 years ago

Nowadays the closest you can get to this is either Smalltalk (using squeak for example) or, going to the other side of the spectrum, Forth (using gforth for example).

chx2• 3 years ago

There are other people still alive who know Forth? :) I thought we died out.

Zambyte• 3 years ago

Obviously this is more true to actual Lisp machines than Emacs, but in practice how different of a UX would this be? Ignoring the huge ecosystem around Emacs, it seems like the main difference is being able to save the application state and restore it at a later time. Are there any other major differences?

pjmlp7• 3 years ago

Think about the bootloader landing on Emacs, being graphical based not text, compiling elisp to native code, the image based, systems programming forms for elisp, the whole OS infrastructure and graphical applications, that is how much it is missing from Emacs.

lispm5• 3 years ago

see for example two Symbolics applications demoed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQKlgza_HgE

first demo is about Paintamation, a 2,5d paint and animation application

the second demo is demoing the 3d modeler and the 3d animation application

running on the Symbolics with a b&w console, a color screen & framebuffer, a Lisp keyboard and a pen tablet

All the code was written in object-oriented Lisp.

malkia2• 3 years ago

Completely unrelated, but I think "symbolics.com" was the absolutely first domain registered. Also thanks for the video :) :) :)

agumonkey• 3 years ago

hehe, I rewatched this just two days ago, it's still very impressive. Had a symbolics relapse after finding about kaveh kardan involvment with them and his blog/snippets https://scribe.rip/@kaveh808/rediscovering-common-lisp-57f5c...

zeroclicks2• 3 years ago

This sounds like a terrible way to run a lisp emulator. One shell command after another which assume one has the apt(1) package manager available on their system.

Maybe the title of the article is poorly done.

The easiest way to run a lisp machine is just to start emacs (there are ports for various operating systems) or try something like racket where you have a REPL with graphics and other goodies installed.

I know HN loves lisp, but putting this article on the front page is a good way to deter lisp adoption.

wk_end3• 3 years ago

You can argue that Emacs is a "Lisp machine", in that it's an environment you could conceivably think of as a kind of virtual "machine" in which you can run a particular Lisp (although arguably Elisp isn't what most people mean by Lisp), but this is about Lisp Machines[0], which are very specific historical computers.

I hope it would go without saying to anyone looking to adopt Lisp that this is for historical interest* only and you should instead install a modern Lisp like SBCL or what have you.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_Machines

* (nd IMO its the sort of historical interest that indeed belongs on the front page of HN)

zeroclicks2• 3 years ago

You're right that "Lisp Machines" refer to a very peculiar point in time, available to only a very small number of people.

The article even mentions: > This was all accurate as of around 2018, but please be aware that things may have changed since then!

There's no reason this should appear on the frontpage of a "news" site.

lispm5• 3 years ago

There are a lot of simple ways to run a Lisp system.

This is a very different thing, it's a Lisp Machine operating system running on a CPU emulator (~ from mid 90s). With its own Lisp, process scheduler, garbage collector, GUI, X11 client, file systems, network stacks, various network client and servers, configuration system, integrated development environment, database, ...

mepian• 3 years ago

No, the title is absolutely fine. It is you who are confused. Neither Emacs nor Racket are Lisp machines. Open Genera is the official emulator of the last actual "machine" (a physical item that sits on your desk) series that was designed by the people who originally invented the term "Lisp machine" before someone started to misuse it.

jjwiseman• 3 years ago

  When a site is defined, Genera calls (si:enable-who-calls :new) automatically
  for you.. But we want to enable who-calls on all functions, not just new
  functions, so we must manually set that up

    (si:enable-who-calls :all)

  This takes a few minutes to run.

My god, it takes minutes to run now? How long did that take to run on the original hardware?

lispm5• 3 years ago

On my Apple M2 Pro it runs in 15 seconds on a large world.

A real Ivory machine would be roughly 70 times slower.

tallbikeguy• 3 years ago

I'm struggling to configure/build the VLM on my M2 Mac running Ubuntu in a VM - any chance you could share your configure.ac or build process?

gumby2• 3 years ago

I have never been as productive as I was when I had (the terminals for) two of these babies on the desks in my office. I can't imagine how much they must have cost in 1985, much less in today's dollars.

I do remember each had 8 MW of memory (40 bits IIRC, 36 bit word + 4 bits of ECC) and one of them had a color display (!!!) in addition to the regular monitor.

And apart from the hardware cost, the machines themselves were in a machine room with coax and data run to my office.

mcculley2• 3 years ago

What were you developing or working on with them?

My only exposure to Symbolics was as part of a simulation system.

gumby2• 3 years ago

Cyc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyc

floren• 3 years ago

So has anyone tried this lately? I'm on an up-to-date Debian Stable running X and FVWM, and when I try to run it I see https://pastebin.com/7bJk7Mr4 (acts like it can't find the x server)

Running Open Genera 2.0 on Linux

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