Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38485

by juwo • 19 years ago

10 38 19 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Please comment on the two:

A) Extreme case:

[deleted]

B) Normal Case:

You keep a copy of your work and designs so you can reuse the ideas and perhaps even snippets of code. It is also a record of your work. This is for 'normal' work that took lots of thought and effort, not patented stuff.

Qs: How many of you regularly do B? Please also comment on A

nickb2• 19 years ago

OK, I was contracting in my previous life so I've seen these issues pop up many times before. Here's few words.

A) is illegal. You have no ownership of ANY code or IP that you work on at the company that employs you. That's what they're paying you for, after all.

B) is also illegal. Unless the company in question has open sourced their code and allows anyone to use it under some kind of a BSD-like license, you have absolutely no right to use that code or IP.

Not only are both of these cases illegal, they're also highly unethical. Also, if you're forming a company around someone else's IP, you're gonna crash and burn.

When I worked as a contractor, I would use my own libraries to save me some time but before I used them, I notified the management that I was using them and told them that I own the code and that I give them full right to use it without any licensing fees and I also told them I would use them on my other contracting jobs. They always accepted these stipulations an I've never had any problems. They loved the fact that I was not wasting my time and their money re-implementing the wheel and that I was solving their problems in record time. The key is to be open and put it all on the table before you start working.

Also, after I'd finish working on a project and if I was using my own computer, I'd wipe my computer clean of all of their code. I would do that on the last day of my job and I ALWAYS made sure that someone from the management was there to witness it. Sure, that might be going overboard but trust me... it's worth it. It shows them that you care about these sorts of things and it also makes sure that they won't have a strong case if they ever decide to sue you down the road because you end up inventing something amazing that's in their marketspace or you end up working for competition.

menloparkbum6• 19 years ago

You are totally wrong. In a contracting situation, the CONTRACTOR owns all the code he or she produces unless the contract specifically states otherwise.

jsjenkins1682• 19 years ago

The contract almost always states otherwise though. Unless maybe you're working in an area where the companies doesn't care about their IP or are just simply ignorant.

nickb2• 19 years ago

Where exactly am I wrong? Point the sentence. Of course you have to assign them IP! That's what they're paying you for! Ever contracted for the government?! Look at their 20 page assignment agreement.

http://www.developerdotstar.com/mag/articles/daniels_softwar...

edw5195• 19 years ago

Both are unethical and NEVER acceptable. Run, don't walk, the other way from those who rationalize this behavior.

(Why is it that when it comes to ethics, what was once clear cut is now "fuzzy"?)

paulgb4• 19 years ago

I commend you for your firm sense of ethics, but what exactly are you saying is unethical?

For example, once in a while I will come across a problem that I know I have solved before, so I will refer to code I had previously written for someone else to remind myself of how I first solved it. I don't see any ethical dilemma in this.

edw5195• 19 years ago

Let's see if I have this right. Someone paid you to provide them with something for competitive purposes (if it's business, why else?). Now you're using their IP to provide someone else (who may be their competitor) with something for competitive purposes. It's NOT up to you to determine who is competing with whom, how important someone's IP is to them. or whether or not "it's a big deal". I've seen multi-million dollar deals terminated and careers sidetracked when there was even a hint of impropriety in the air. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE how important most business people feel about this issue.

Of course, no one owns what's in your brain, but that's all you own. Move on.

mojuba• 19 years ago

Perhaps you can use your ideas but certainly not your code.

I managed to open-source some parts of my code (basically some generic libraries) under a very liberal license and to reuse it in other companies. Not without agreement with the employers, of course.

menloparkbum6• 19 years ago

It may or may not be illegal or ethical, but it is rarely useful. I used to keep most of the code I've written for employers over the years, but I never once looked at it.

staunch4• 19 years ago

Same here. My feeling is that being ethically compelled to re-implement something you've done before is a blessing in disguise.

juwo5• 19 years ago

please also comment on A) since the person is likely to become an investor in my product in the near term.

extantproject• 19 years ago

What agreements have been made with the employer? Hire an intellectual property lawyer to read and discuss the implications of any written contracts and agreements made with the employer.

juwo5• 19 years ago

its not about legalities.

sripanyam2• 19 years ago

well it is certainly illegal ... ethics are fudged... using the source code or work derived from the code is certainly unethical (i think) because your code was paid by the employer..

but the actual idea? well where would you guys classify this? i think the actual idea unless protected by a patent is open.. also a lot of companies put a no-compete clause forbidding working for another company in the same domain ... (even though in some countries thats against the law)

sripanyam2• 19 years ago

regardign the "idea being protected by a patent", i meant if worded carefully with the necessary legal mumbo jumbo... (eg in australia, software patents are usually titled - a way using a COMPUTER to do steps explained in algorithm X)

jgamman• 19 years ago

if the code is a crystallisation of their business idea then using it again is equivalent to re-using their business idea and i think that is highly un-ethical. if you are talking about reusing some CSS templates and changing the colors - meh. personally, i err on the side of caution and never take work with me from one company to another - often i can condense 6 months of learn-by-doing into a couple of weeks of do-over since it is the overall direction and knowing what is definitely wrong that saves time. /note: i'm a scientist not a programmer but i think the same situations apply

Is it ethical to keep a copy of the code or designs you did for your employer, for your reference?

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