Apple and Irish Government suffer major setback in €13B EU case

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/11/09/apple-and-irish-government-suffer-major-setback-in-13bn-eu-tax-case/

by donohoe • 3 years ago

53 79 3 years ago

TL;DR Wealthiest company in the world may be able to hustle a nation state into preferential tax treatment. But even hustling at that level has limits, at least in the EU.

"Sorry about that discount I promised you. My manager says you must pay me in full. Hurts me as much as you..."

stefan_• 3 years ago

They didn't need to hustle too much, giving giant companies preferential tax treatment in exchange for pretend jobs is essentially the Irish economy.

secondcoming• 3 years ago

What’s ‘pretend’ about the jobs?

repelsteeltje3• 3 years ago

As are Cyprus, Netherlands, Luxembourg and another handful EU countries. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for EU crackdown on tax rulings; especially given the general lack of progress in tax harmonization between EU countries.

aswerty• 3 years ago

While people are free to contest my governments strategy regarding attracting companies with a low corporation tax rate. Claiming that we are producing "pretend jobs" doesn't ring true. Do you have any examples of this?

The effective tax rate (as opposed to the by the book tax rate) in Ireland isn't that out of kilter with the rest of Europe [0]. It still is the lowest but it does bookend the other countries quite tightly.

[0] https://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=CTS_ETR

NovemberWhiskey3• 3 years ago

TL;DR

I think you mean "random editorialization and anti-Apple screed".

A TL;DR would be more like "latest developments in the long-running debate on whether Ireland's tax regime constituted illegal state aid to Apple".

PedroBatista• 3 years ago

I suspect a plane full of US "officials" and adjacent personalities is already en-route to Brussels..

All that lobbying and campaign money has to produce results.

CrazyStat• 3 years ago

This case has been going on for 7 years already, if the plane hasn't got there yet it's not coming.

macintux• 3 years ago

Historically Apple hasn't been nearly as active as its peers, although last year they significantly closed the gap.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/01/23/apple-ramped-up-lobbying-spe...

akie• 3 years ago

They could, yes, and I'm sure it won't have much of an effect. When it comes to economic policy, the EU usually doesn't play games.

euroderf• 3 years ago

Headline: In a race to the bottom, EU puts trampoline under Ireland

drooopy• 3 years ago

It's absurd that Ireland needs to be forced to accept money that the richest company in the world owe it.

NovemberWhiskey3• 3 years ago

Why? Sure, Ireland would get a one-off tax boost, but then all the firms that had structured their business this way would no longer have a reason to invest in Ireland at all.

qnpnp4• 3 years ago

This is an antitrust case, not a tax case. The whole point is that other firms did not benefit from the same rules.

joris_w• 3 years ago

There is no investment.

johndunne5• 3 years ago

I'm Irish and the ruling relates to the double-irish tax break specifically, it's about marketing for this tax evasion tactic. It's a hot topic in Ireland; Ireland looks like one of the richest countries on Earth (by GDP) but most Irish aren't feeling this. It's the huge amounts of money flowing through this double-irish loophole that creates the false GDP number. The loophole should end and paying the tax means closing the loophole.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

petesergeant• 3 years ago

Honestly at this point, they're probably not going to up sticks. Well-educated Anglophone workforce, lots of existing employees and infrastructure, excellent rule-of-law, lots of extant US-Irish good will, unlikely to elect popularist strongmen any time soon ... where else to go?

hurril3• 3 years ago

It's weirder that they are not able to decide for themselves what goes on in Ireland.

marticode• 3 years ago

Not any weirder than Montana having to abide by SCOTUS decisions.

noelwelsh• 3 years ago

Taxing multinational companies is a prisoner's dilemma, and taxation agreements between countries are a rational strategy to get a better outcome for all.

c54• 3 years ago

That’s the kind of thing Britain thought they were being smart about with Brexit and look where that’s gotten them

qnpnp4• 3 years ago

How is it weird for a country to be bound by the treaties it entered into?

jacobgorm• 3 years ago

How would you go about implementing a common market without a court to handle disputes?

boudin• 3 years ago

It's not weird, Ireland is part of the single market, that allows Apple to operate in the single market area from Ireland but the counter part is that there are a set of rules to avoid a race to the bottom in term of taxation. That's what this is about.

doikor• 3 years ago

It is part of the "deal" for companies in Ireland to get access to the rest of the EU. This access is the reason why Apple etc shuffle their profits through Ireland in the first place.

The "it" in this case is that every company should be treated the same. So basically no sweetheart deals allowed. And now there is a fight in the courts if there is/was a special deal in place for Apple or not.

NoboruWataya4• 3 years ago

Ireland is being forced to tear up its own taxation rules, by countries who have an interest in making the Irish economy less competitive.

qnpnp4• 3 years ago

No. This isn't a tax case, and EU has no authority on direct tax matters. The point is not that Ireland should change its tax rules.

This is an antitrust case. The point is that Ireland gave Apple preferential terms compared to its own tax rules.

surgical_fire• 3 years ago

I live in Ireland, and work in the Tech sector.

What you are saying is bullshit.

This affects only Apple, and not any other company.

jokethrowaway• 3 years ago

The EU is just pissed they didn't get a cut of the shady deal.

ggm• 3 years ago

Great Hot take but it does go wider than this. Ireland profited at the expense of almost all other economies in the double irish-dutch sandwich nonsense, and so there is a bit more than just "shady deal we want in" here.

Tax exists for a reason. Avoiding tax exists for other reasons. Which side you are on depends on what you think about money, planning, and the economy at large.

I mainly worry that Ireland didn't spend the money very wisely. Not to say that the other people's economies that missed the taxes don't have some make-up to come.

Because rest assured, by allowing Apple to pay LESS tax to Irelant, what happened is other places where real trade took place missed out on VAT/GST income.

s_dev• 3 years ago

Those of you interested in a somewhat impartial take: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17p3ThgMQYo

Patrick Boyle explaining how the Irish economy works with a focus on Apples operations in Ireland. While Ireland isn't as wealthy as it's GDP suggests, it has massively benefitted from US Multinationals. So neither is the Irish economy a house of cards nor is it the wealthiest in the world. It's isn't maliciously undermining the EU nor is it going to simply do what suits France and Germany.

johndunne5• 3 years ago

I came here with that link in my clipboard and never got to hit Ctrl+V :D It's a good video indeed.

nemoniac• 3 years ago

It's striking to see the newspaper of record in Ireland presents this as a "major setback" to the Irish Government. That government is wilfully and blatantly failing to enforce EU law, that it is treaty bound to enforce, for its own gain. It's tantamount to observing that the Irish Government and Apple are openly conspiring against the EU.

Supernaut4• 3 years ago

If this case were actually as open-and-shut as you seem to think, would it really have dragged on for seven years? What was issued today isn't even a ruling. It's just an opinion that will now be carried forward into further arbitration.

Apple and Irish Government suffer major setback in €13B EU case

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