People would rather be electrically shocked than left alone with their thoughts

https://www.science.org/content/article/people-would-rather-be-electrically-shocked-left-alone-their-thoughts

by LastNevadan • 3 years ago

26 24 3 years ago

science.org

dusted• 3 years ago

I'd pay to be left alone with my thoughts.

psychphysic• 3 years ago

I'm astounded by how much some people can not stand their own thoughts.

Shared a hotel room with a friend who refused to go to bed until he was nearly collapsing from sleepiness cause he terrorised himself with anxiety every time he lay in peace.

That seems like hell to me.

catchnear4321• 3 years ago

as much as your friend terrorized himself, he was also terrorized that same amount, if not more.

it is hell.

anon373839• 3 years ago

It’s the avoidance or, I should say, attempted avoidance of one’s thoughts that creates the hell. The way out is to learn to experience them without trying to control them. From there, it becomes possible to select new thoughts and place your attention where you want it to be.

mrandish4• 3 years ago

I read the article because I'm quite strongly the opposite of the "most people" study population and I've been thinking about this trait more lately. Sadly, TFA doesn't address the opposite case very deeply...

Some people seem to enjoy thinking more than others. For instance, the study found that people who are more agreeable or cooperative were more likely to enjoy themselves when they were told to think about anything. Individuals who admitted that their daydreams normally leave them happy fared better, too.

I generally like "being alone with my thoughts" but not exclusively so. For a few years I had a multi-hour, once a week-ish commute and on such a long drive alone, I would occasionally listen to podcasts but my content bar is high, it needs to be one of the few podcasts I really enjoy AND even then an episode on a topic I'm especially interested in. Even with my favorite podcast, nowhere near half the episodes make my interest-level cut. The reason is that the alternate content needs to be more appealing to me than thinking my own thoughts. I find pure thinking to be quite interesting, engaging and even sometimes downright entertaining. It can also be productive as I'll often have ideas or realizations which are valuable.

I realize that I'm in the minority as I have friends who've expressed apparent horror at the thought of just driving alone for a couple hours and thinking in silence. I find that the times I do prefer to listen to a podcast are usually when I'm too mentally tired to generate my own good quality thinking.

In case it's of interest to anyone else who may share this trait, here are my other relevant characteristics:

- I was clinically diagnosed in childhood (many decades ago) with ADHD significant enough to be medicated daily and put in special ed classes (heavily attentional, minimially hyperactive or emotional). For me, meds did help mitigate the attentional impacts of ADHD enough to muddle through typical school contexts with mostly Bs and Cs and I've found meds meaningfully (although not completely) useful in adult careers as well.

- My personal satisfaction and career trajectory found success once I learned to focus on bridging between traditional technical and creative roles. I was an "above average" programmer but never at the top. Same with writing, design, marketing, customer engagement, etc. But with good knowledge, decent ability and lots of experience in both - I excelled at product management and entrepreneurial-type roles.

- I'm a "secret introvert", meaning that most people who work with me or know me casually would assume I'm an extrovert as I not only have no problem giving a keynote speech, stage demo or delivering a high-stakes presentation to the BOD or VCs - I'm widely considered very good at it and even enjoy it sometimes. It's also easy for me to step into the role of ad hoc host of the reception or be the 'life of the party' when necessary. In fact, I always thought I was an extrovert until I went to one of those in-depth, high-level leadership training programs where a team of psychologists spent days one-on-one assessing me and told me I was clearly an introvert and probably always have been. I openly doubted them until they told me that what really mattered wasn't "did I like it or do it well" but instead "did I recharge my batteries afterward by being alone or by being engaged with others." Then it made perfect sense because I've definitely always recharged alone after major emotional energy expenditures.

- One perhaps downside trait which may be related is that I am strictly a mono-tasker, so much so, now I just point-blank tell people "I can either listen, talk or think - but I can't do any of them well if I have to do more than one at a time." This is true to the extent that what others might consider acceptable ambient noise like a TV talk show playing in the same room can to me be almost like "a denial of service attack on coherent thought". Like I find it pretty uncomfortable to even have breakfast in one of those communal breakfast buffet rooms at business travel hotels where they play Good Morning America or CNN at pretty high volume. Even if I'm just eating alone - it takes extra effort to form coherent chains of thought, so I just take my plate back to my room. As for my friends who say they "always have a radio or TV turned on for ambient comfort" anytime they are alone, doing something else and not at all watching it - even just imagining that is kind of uncomfortable to me. (and yes, in my laptop bag I always have a variety of earplugs and noise canceling devices to enable functioning in various 'hostile' contexts). Just to be clear, I love watching great movies and good TV shows and even have a high-end home theater dedicated to it. However, when I watch media - I do so intently and with pure focus. If I have guests over who may like to talk during good movies, I prefer to just go into host mode refilling drinks and popcorn and will wait to really watch the film later on my own (unless the film is just bad, in which case, if I'm alone, I'll leave the theater or stop the film - I guess because my high-focus attentional cycles can be scarce I treat them as valuable and worth conserving).

vlod2• 3 years ago

is that I am strictly a mono-tasker

I'm somewhat similar. If there's tv/music playing, I have a hard time working. I believe it's because my brain get hooked/sucked into the current song and kinda sings along internally (if it has lyrics) and grabs my full attention.

However if I'm listening to electronica (no vocals, e.g. progressive trance), I can listen to it while working. The way I reason this, is it's like my river of thoughts is moving faster.

Yeah this sounds a bit weird/strange. Maybe my brain is wired differently (I suspect it might be a spectrum thing).

I'm curious if it's a type of music or you've tried electronica while trying to work?

mrandish4• 3 years ago

Good point. Certain kinds of ambient or so-called focus music are definitely better for me than typical lyric-melody based music if I'm trying to focus. On my phone I have playlists of different types of ambient music as well as various kinds of natural environments and synthetic noise background loops. I use them to drown out sounds when silence isn't an option and environmental noise exceeds blocking or canceling. It does help as opposed to doing nothing but frankly, for me, silence is always going to be best for thinking.

To be clear, I do greatly enjoy listening to non-ambient music but I tend to do so with pure focus. I like a lot of different genres from electronica, dance, classical, soundtracks, electro-swing and even top 100 pop music when it's especially good but I tightly curate my playlists. If a song is on one of my non-ambient playlists I definitely LOVE that song to the extent I would always enjoy just sitting in the dark and basking in it while doing nothing else. Anything short of that doesn't make the cut for my non-ambient playlists, which I think may be unusual based on how my friends report they curate playlists.

Yeah this sounds a bit weird/strange. Maybe my brain is wired differently (I suspect it might be a spectrum thing).

Not strange at all to me. In fact, those who report turning on the TV AND a radio in order to "study" seem bizarre to me. Yes, maybe our brains are wired differently but I certainly don't think it's necessarily any kind of downside or deficit - it's just a cognitive difference. To be honest, (and I admit this is obviously an inaccurate personal bias), I can't help feeling those who hate being alone with their own thoughts are somehow "broken." Like, "Really? Your thoughts are so boring even you find them unbearable?" :-) (<-- again, I fully acknowledge this is a snarky, unfair and insensitive emotional reflex that is unjustified and irrational). But still, I really do have trouble comprehending a neural state or conscious existence where that would be true in an otherwise intelligent, emotionally well-balanced, educated adult. I cite this as personal evidence that different neural types may be completely genuine when they report finding MY neuro-type utterly incomprehensible.

Given_473• 3 years ago

However if I'm listening to electronica (no vocals, e.g. progressive trance), I can listen to it while working.

Entirely agree, I’m listening to a Hernan Cattaneo mix rn, which is more prog house (tho I’ve read about the impassioned debates between the two sides that used to take place over something like which got to claim Sasha’s Xpander lol) and I cannot listen to anything else while working.

The way I reason this, is it's like my river of thoughts is moving faster.

I’ve long wondered the same and it just occurred to me now that that specific bpm range could be analogous to a pace car. It has enough tempo to get u, and keep u, in “the zone” while not being too up-tempo to be overwhelming. Additionally, the consistent bpm and lack of vocals accomplishes the above for me while still not being distracting.

And to your idea of a “river” or “stream” I think that’s y I find pronounced breakdowns jarring in this context because it’s basically an interruption.

However if I’m doing abstract thinking and exploring my thoughts in depth, that idea of a pace car is detrimental so I prefer silence for that

mrandish4• 3 years ago

Replying to myself to add a couple more traits I have which I suspect may be related:

- I'm a slow task-switcher. Really painfully slow. Halting a fully spun up 'deep task' feels cognitively costly and pretty annoying too. Even conversationally, if I'm deeply engaged in thought and someone starts speaking to me unexpectedly, I often miss the first one or two words they say and need to infer them from the subsequent context.

- Because of my "Listen, Think or Talk, Pick Any One (at a time)" limitation, people who've worked with me a while have joked that I operate with a "Ten-Second Tape Delay" because I'll often respond with a substantive thought or observation on the prior topic in the conversation. This is simply because once I listen to what's being said, task-switch to thinking about it, reach a conclusion, mentally compose what I'm going to say and then interject - it can be 10 or 15 seconds later. In my defense, the same people also tend to report that the wait is usually worth it. :-)

- I've also noticed I seem to have a high degree of attentional blindness in visual contexts as well. For example, I'm unusually slow at any kind of "Where's Waldo" visual search in a dense field. I'm notoriously bad at finding a person I'm looking for in a crowd or at locating an unfamiliar product on a large, visually busy shelf. I need to basically chunk the visual field down and parse it block by block. I also don't generally prefer visually crowded environments. My own spaces tend to be pretty sparse and well-grouped.

- On the strengths side, friends and co-workers report I'm often freakishly fast at transforming, combining and connecting abstract concepts and similar "brainstorming" type creativity tasks. Perhaps relatedly, I'm good at spatial manipulation. My wife says I have an abnormally good sense of direction which she calls "a god-like tab key" after the button to bring up the overhead map in many RPGs.

All that said, those who meet me or work with me wouldn't describe me as neuro-atypical because I certainly don't come across as being unusual or 'on the spectrum' or anything like that, at least at first. While the traits described above are certainly strong, only those who know me well and over a significant period of time would notice these things. Interestingly, I'd say almost all of them have noticed, in part because one key to my success has been understanding my strengths and weaknesses and making sure those around me do as well.

Given_473• 3 years ago

I plan to expand on this in a reply to ur other comment once I get my thoughts more distilled but I first wanted to mention how strange it is to basically read a description of myself lol.

And do u have any sort of logging structure for organizing your thoughts? Because for me I think of a million things a day and piece different things together and stumble upon realizations all the time, but I have a terrible system for keeping track of the myriad fleeting thoughts I might want to return to.

mrandish4• 3 years ago

do u have any sort of logging structure for organizing your thoughts?

Yep, I almost always carry around a little black book of blank, gridded note paper in my back pocket (because quickly jotting a note on paper is somehow better for me than running an app).

I also use OneNote on my laptops/desktops to organize my jotted notes. I use OneNote because it's always been "free" to me because it's included in MS Office. I've also heard that Notion is good and maybe better. One essential feature of any note organization system for me is that it must be structured, meaning I can collapse/expand one line notes into larger sections with sub-sections and that this nests recursively.

If everything is visible at once it quickly gets overwhelming so I need to layer it into a structure that makes sense to me.

bratgpttamer• 3 years ago

I love being left alone with my thoughts, but I'd probably push the button anyway, not out of boredom, but because it's a rare opportunity to see what the infamous psych lab electric shocks are like.

greatfilter251• 3 years ago

Same: I generally don't mind being alone with my thoughts, but given the opportunity to experience (presumably) very safe electric shocks, I would take the novel opportunity.

Such studies may all be flawed in assuming very low utils in designed negative stimuli.

iancmceachern• 3 years ago

Exactly. I love thinking about stuff, but if I'm given a button to push, that button's getting pushed.

worez• 3 years ago

I appreciate how human this answer is

vlod2• 3 years ago

I get funny looks when I go walk (say a 90min) the dog, without my phone (so no podcasts/music). I find it really helps me solve tech problems.

I think my brain is always trying to tell me what to do, if I just STFU for a bit. Also I find that you pick up on strange/interesting things happening around you if you just observe.

vgeek• 3 years ago

I normally walk the dog for at least an hour after work and also never carry a phone. I just stare into space while she sniffs, thinking about various things and watching for the resident groundhogs, and I'm pretty sure this is viewed as deviant behavior now relative to many's default compulsion of scrolling social media or news.

furyofantares• 3 years ago

Even though all participants had previously stated that they would pay money to avoid being shocked with electricity

I'd say I'd pay money to avoid being shocked, and then if left alone in a room with a button that shocks me I would press the button.

I'm taking signals from the experimenter! When you ask that question it suggests it's possibly worth paying to avoid, plus however you word it, it takes the form of "we'll shock you unless you pay", which is kinda threatening even if worded gently. It's still threatening and demeaning even if you ask if you can pay me to shock me.

Leave me alone with the button and it gives me a different signal, and the implied power dynamic is reversed, it's my agency. And to be honest I think if I had previously answered the other question I would now be extra curious what it was I said I'd pay to avoid.

badrabbit• 3 years ago

This is a bit weird for me. I don't particilarly like or dislike it, it's just what it is. Do other people not have 1h+/day where they are bored of their smartphone/tv and don't do anything at all? I get at least 5-6 hours a week (possibly twice that) alone with my thoughts. I thought it was mostly child raising people that were forced into 110% time for others mode.

It's very easy to get carried away if there is some problem and I have an idea, I just keep measuring/calculating until it gets out of hand and meh... I don't get enough out of it to actually do it IRL . Things like climate change, us politics, startup ideas, technical problems I've seen at work, religion, nature of the universe,etc...I even come up with surprisingly funny jokes/humor but only if I am tired and grouchy (is it the mind's auto-response to protect itself? Is this why comedians are usually sad/distreessed IRL?).

I am a bit surprised by this post because there are a ton of people much smarter than me on HN and I presumed they must spend a ton of time with their own thoughts, figuring shit out. But I am not seeing comments of that nature. Perhaps grit/discipline and interest play a bigger role?

I gotta say though, getting to know myself has not been pleasant, but it is the truth and reality, at least then I can change. One lesson I've learned in recent years is how utterly terrible I and we humans in general ultimately are, and it wasn't surprising when I found out that even babies can be racist, greedy, jealous,etc... and have to be taught what is good and right. A lot of "good" behavior is only a consequence of a full belly, social/peer consensus, shelter and desirable socio-economic conditions. I know damn well I am capable of shameful cowardice or hitlerian atrocities and I will fight like everything I am depends on it to prevent that and stop rationaliztion and self-deception that is needed to do terrible things.

If you ask me, everyone should spend time with their own thoughts and get to know themselves. "The wolf you feed" wins after all (if you know of that parable).

LargeTomato• 3 years ago

I can't stand not being alone with my thoughts. I can't really listen to music without getting anxious. I often am happiest just being alone and thinking. I drive in silence and just think.

midoridensha• 3 years ago

Just how bad is the shock? What voltage? AC or DC? What part of the body, and what's the return path for the current?

tveita• 3 years ago

Push the button and find out!

Arrath• 3 years ago

I love complete, dead silence. I can't stand it when people need to fill every second with noise just because, whether it's with the tv, music, or a constant stream of consciousness chatter.

People would rather be electrically shocked than left alone with their thoughts

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