‘It’s the Wild West’: Vienna’s spying problem spins out of control

https://www.ft.com/content/f790d8f4-2fe1-466d-8b29-83b1f4956984

by eatonphil • 3 years ago

38 46 3 years ago

ft.com

rob742• 3 years ago

https://archive.is/1hQL2

Guthur• 3 years ago

Good on Austria, don't play their silly games. They just want to rob you blind like they're doing to everyone else.

keiferski• 3 years ago

Vienna, a city synonymous with shady cold war intrigue...

If you are curious what that was like, I highly recommend Orson Welles' film The Third Man, which is set in post-war Vienna. You can even visit the sewers where part of the film takes place. (I recommend it, but be aware that it isn't fancy.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Man

https://www.wien.gv.at/english/environment/sewer-system/thir...

koromak• 3 years ago

The Third Man is absolutely fantastic. Its not just good for its time, it holds up even today.

mc32• 3 years ago

It’s also associated with Trotsky and a few other marxists around the time of the revolution.

LatteLazy7• 3 years ago

Um... Good.

Given the amount of posturing on both sides, the actual shooting war in Ukraine and the nuclear arsenals involved, it seems like a public service to facilitate both sides actually knowing what the other side actually thinks and what their actual red lines are.

qwytw• 3 years ago

You're assuming (for some unknown reason) that both sides are acting rationally?

Would you care to elaborate on that?

LatteLazy7• 3 years ago

I don't think I am, am I? Sorry if I am missing your point. I am just saying you want to know whether they're actually irrational or just pretending (which is often rational). And when Putin says "X is a red line" you want to KNOW whether he means it or not. And it's likely a good thing for him to know the same about Biden.

Good in this context is defined as avoiding nuclear war. Whether it means winning a particular point in Ukraine or not... Sorry Ukraine.

ofrzeta• 3 years ago

I don't quite get what they are "spying" there, as there's probably no specific information to get there. From the article the Russians are meeting German informants there, ok. Then there's the issue with SIGINT on the roofs of Russian embassy etc. Is there anything to be got that can not be collected anywhere else, specifically in Russia?

sn41• 3 years ago

During the cold war, Austria was the on border between the Soviet bloc and the West. Historically, the Austro-Hungarian empire had a lot of territories in Central Europe, which has strong ties to Russia as well. I am guessing that some of the links are still there.

mstolpm• 3 years ago

Vienna is full of international organizations from UNO to OPEC: https://wien-io.diplo.de/iow-en/international-organizations

hilbert42• 3 years ago

Right, having once worked there, it was obvious to me these organizations provided the perfect opportunity for contact without raising red flags. (No, that wasn't my job, my work was far too prosaic for that.)

Re comment "...has once again become the espionage capital of Europe after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine — and Austria’s government seems in no rush to change that."

It's obvious why not, to do so would instantly tread on the toes of these organizations and that's just not going to happen.

rurban• 3 years ago

This is replaced by Brussels for long, with the EU and NATO headquarters there. Most of the spying is happening there nowadays. Then Washington, then Geneva.

But all the known Russian spies were not sent home, so the West is angry.

LatteLazy7• 3 years ago

Or just on the roof of the Russian Embassy in London/Berlin/Washington?

masswerk2• 3 years ago

During the Cold War, even information that we would now think of as open source intelligence, like newspaper and magazine articles, was valid SIGINT. The closer you came to the dividing line between the blocks, the more probable it was to find this kind of information (just like you may be more likely to find maritime information in a port, as compared to the a landlocked place). This naturally attracted foreign personal and international organizations, as well, which introduced another class of targets of value. Which in turn makes overall activities more likely, which also provides a certain level of noise to hide your own activities…

News-Dog• 3 years ago

I don't quite get what they are "spying" there... the issue with SIGINT on the roofs of Russian embassy etc.

Is there anything to be got that can not be collected anywhere else, specifically in Russia?

GSM, 3G, 4G, 5G interceptors, cellular tapping and eavesdropping

Stingrays, also known as "cell site simulators" or "IMSI catchers,"

are invasive cell phone surveillance devices that mimic cell phone towers,

and send out signals to trick cell phones in the area into transmitting their locations and identifying information.

cell site simulators : <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=cell+sit...>

WiFi snooping bases, etc.

fithisux• 3 years ago

I remember Austrians imprisoned un-subjugated people at home.

No surprises.

AnimalMuppet• 3 years ago

What, specifically, are you referring to? And why do you think it's relevant to the current discussion?

thsksbd2• 3 years ago

The article pearl clutches w/out stating why Vienna is a spying hub (no, its not the intl. orgs there).

Hint - legally Austria is not, in the words of the article, "allies" with the West.

eigenket4• 3 years ago

Legally Austria is part of the European Union and a founding member of the OECD. Its not just "allies with" the West. It is part of the west.

rob742• 3 years ago

Politically, yes. From a military point of view, it has committed itself to neutrality - it's mostly forgotten that after the end of WW2, Austria (and Vienna) were also divided in occupation zones, similar to Germany (and Berlin) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria. This occupation was already ended in 1955, but only at the price of committing to stay neutral "forever". And it looks like they still feel bound by this commitment...

thsksbd2• 3 years ago

I said allied with the West. Austria, as the heart of the Holy Roman Empire, is very much part of the West.

Austria's Westerness has nothing to do with the silly institutions you listed and everything to do with Her history.

But the context is spying, armies and war. So let's do NATO next and, generally, military alliances.

Austria is constitutionally obliged not to enter into alliances that compromise her neutrality. This constitutional clause was insisted upon by the Soviets (in early the 50s? Late 40s?) for them to agree for the return of Austria's sovereignty.

The other three occupying powers agreed and Austria became independent. An Austria that reneges on military neutrality technically reneges on her sovereignty.

The FT's article was clearly talking about military alliances therefore was grossly inaccurate when it deemed Austria an "western" ally. Austria is de jure, both according to national and international law, a neutral country. Her neutrality is more caked into law than Switzerland's.

_fat_santa2• 3 years ago

Geopolitically it makes a ton of sense. Austria is part of the EU while it is not part of NATO. It's basically a buffer state between eastern and western EU.

watwut5• 3 years ago

That makes zero sense since Austria is literally surrounded by NATO countries.

masswerk2• 3 years ago

Legally, spying in Austria is only illegal when Austria itself is concerned. (Technically, there is no damage done to the public good in espionage against a third party. As Austria is technically/officially without allies, there are also no intermediate interests to defend, justifying a universal law against this. However, there may be reason to update this with regard to EU membership. Mind that this is also a legacy of when Austria had been a much-needed link between the East and the West, in the Cold War, and even before this. But as it is now, the need for or the worth of such a role is perceived increasingly less.)

Regarding "allied", it's complicated: EU membership is sort of an association, Austria is member of P4P, and there were certain grey projects in the past, which involved cooperation (and also circumvented parliamentary oversight), Austria is very probably participating in Skyshield, but technically Austria is not part of any block. However, for Austria, there had never been any doubt that it was aligned to Western values and strategies.

It's actually a two-fold problem, e.g., the military intelligence service refuses to report on any cooperations with the NSA to parliament, which is expected to have oversight.

bombolo• 3 years ago

paywalled

Traubenfuchs• 3 years ago

Mail us your CV if you want to work in this industry in Austria or the close central European area and 1) you are not squeamish, 2) you hold no strong political or national views and 3) you either enjoy this kind of work or can keep negative personal feelings about this kind of work hidden (=tasks at work are more important that your ethics or morals -> no Snowden wannabes).

We are looking for anything from butlers, private cooks over ex-military to computer scientists, software engineers and mathematicians. Training on the job and good benefits are part of the deal, a deep background check and absolute confidentiality are essential for survival.

nzwuhgywjooqvqmasc@cazlg.com

bradreaves2• 3 years ago

Nice try, domestic intelligence service.

red-iron-pine2• 3 years ago

huh real domain.

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‘It’s the Wild West’: Vienna’s spying problem spins out of control

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