How to learn how to program well

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36704

by wensing • 19 years ago

3 14 19 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I graduated from undergrad with (essentially) a C.S. minor in 2003. Since then I've managed to pick up some practical hacking skills and projects, but I really want to take my programming to a higher level. What's the best way to do that?

FWIW, my language of choice right now is Python, which is what our startup is written in. What little I know and understand about functional programming and recursion, I enjoy, but I feel like I still don't have a very strong grasp on algorithms, performance, and what makes for truly beautiful code.

I own PG's ANSI Common Lisp and have considered studying it as part of the answer to this question.

To complicate this, a little background: I've been offered two jobs: Job A means I can code in any language I want on a really cool skunkworks project--but I would have to be entirely self-taught; Job B means I would have to code in C#.NET, but I would be surrounded by some serious nerds (OS and graphics types) that would in theory be willing to mentor me.

What would you choose, assuming compensation was the same?

Keios• 19 years ago

Job A if your want to improve your creativity.

Job B if you want to encourage your technique.

To improve my programming I generally do things that I can't figure out how to do in my head.

willarson• 19 years ago

I would take the first job. Many people without a complete formal education have this fear about the things they should know. They also assume that if they had only completed a CS major they would in fact understand these things. Unfortunately this doesn't play out.

I graduated with a CS major, and many of my classmates who graduated with the same did not have a very strong grasp on "algorithms, performance, or what makes beautiful code". Don't let the lack of a formal CS education distress you. The students who know the most are the ones who are off doing their own projects and working with each other to create things, those who charge through the curriculum learn a lot, but don't internalize the knowledge, and thus retain little of it.

steve• 19 years ago

Yes, A for sure. The guys at B probably have some actual work to do other than teaching you all day long.

luxiou• 19 years ago

I would take the first job. It will likely put you in more "if I don't figure this out, nobody else will, and we'll be completely screwed" type situations, and those can be great motivators for doing/learning things you never would have bothered with otherwise.

henning• 19 years ago

It kinda just takes time.

I think the ideal situation would be having something like Job B for a while until you feel like you're a solidly professional duder, and then move on to something more risky and adventurous. I wasted vast amounts of time trying to teach myself to program as a teenager because I didn't know where to go to. Having some structure and guidance could help you.

euccastro3• 19 years ago

My suggestion is pick job B, but keep a hobby project on the side.

The internet makes self learning easier, but then again, mostly all you'd learn from job A you could learn from hobby projects anyway. Face to face interaction with other programmers is harder to substitute.

Just in case you haven't read this already:

http://www.norvig.com/21-days.html

[Sorry, meant to post this as a top level reply.]

wensing2• 19 years ago

Fantastic article . . . I think I'm going to be engrossed in the rest of Norvig's site/articles for a long while now.

That article included a link to the video lectures of the Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs by A&S themselves, given to HP employees back in the 80's:

http://www.archive.org/details/mit_ocw_sicp

chazwozz2• 19 years ago

Obviously there are benefits to both options.

Personally, I find myself in similar dilemma. I studied CS, and the whole time my goal in life was to be a programmer and work with computers. Then you get into the industry and you realise you have achieved your goal, and find you need new goals. You realise the IT world is so huge and there so much to do out there. There is much more to IT than programming.

Theres probably no right answer. I would reassess my goals. Where do you want to be in 10 years. 15 years? Imagine the path to this goal, and I'm sure the right choice will present itself. It may be neither of those options. In fact, I wouldn't limit myself to only 2.

Do you want to be a programmer all your life? (sounds pretty boring to me). This is an important question to ask yourself. What is going to be the best step to where you want to be later on?

euccastro3• 19 years ago

Programming has more than enough challenges to fill a lifetime.

chazwozz2• 19 years ago

agree. thats why i enjoy it so much. personally, i don't want to program all day. variety is the spice of life. thats just me though..

wensing2• 19 years ago

Thanks for all of your responses! I am leaning towards Job A, but we'll see whether or not the offer officially comes through. I'm hoping that I can teach myself. I'm also thinking that the other programmers at Job B might not really play as much of a role as I might imagine . . . that I would still be on my own in a way--self-motivated, self-taught . . . they would just be there to get me through the tough(er) parts.

gcheong2• 19 years ago

I have a degree in CS and it taught me very little about how software is developed in the real world. I would choose A mainly because the chance to work on an interesting project and enjoy that level of freedom rarely comes along in a paid position. Having to deal with all the decisions that go into a software project will help move your skills forward much faster than just being able to ask the nearest "guru". And besides, with the web and Google you have access to the best minds in engineering and can easily compare approaches to common problems. There will always be plenty of "B" jobs around.

gcheong2• 19 years ago

Speaking of the best minds in engineering. Here is some good advice: http://norvig.com/21-days.html

How to learn how to program well

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