Hackers have a problem with Paypal...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3601811

by pp_lurker • 14 years ago

10 11 14 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

... but there are several of us who work there, and are genuinely trying to make it better.

There is an internal conference in a couple of weeks, and part of what they are trying to figure out is why pp is not considered a "destination for technologists". I'm not 100% positive what that means, but in my mind it means that they recognize the company has moved away from its hacker roots and want to make it better.

I know that if you hate the company, then you have no reason to help us make it better, but if you're willing to tell me why you hate it, maybe I can use that to convince the organization to move in a better direction. This is your chance to tell me the things that you want the people in power to hear.

Posted from a throwaway acct. Gotta be secretive.

derrida• 14 years ago

Why isn't it considered a destination for technologists? You blockade Wikileaks. Period. When did Paypal's problems in this domain begin? I'm guessing circa December 2010.

epc• 14 years ago

I don't hate Paypal, but I'd prefer not to implement anything again against the Paypal API.

I wrote a small e-commerce engine for a friend's site a couple of years ago, utilizing Paypal for the shopping cart & IPN to notify the site when merchandise had been purchased. There is an extreme lack of precision in the documentation for the various APIs, that made the entire process take twice as long as it should have (or was, I haven't checked back since I wrote the implementation). When I implemented the IPN receiver I tried to find out, precisely, what data would be sent, and gave up, instead running through a series of transactions to get a 90% coverage of fields for payment and refund transactions.

Receiving all of the ebay transactions for the account was a surprise, but one I was somewhat prepared for.

Maybe there is a flow chart of what data gets sent with what transactions, but in the time I was doing development I couldn't find one. During that time there was some sort of changeover from the existing Developer portal to x.com for some, but not all documentation. Was extremely frustrating for links to examples to break, even more so to return months later and find them still broken.

But the thing that really killed the utility of Paypal for me, and possibly doomed my friend's site, was the long delay when clicking "Add to Cart", which POSTs the relevant item information to Paypal to create and/or add to an existing cart. The delay was measurable in the multi-second range, and was entirely on the Paypal side. Totally independent of browser, O/S, network (I checked). This lead to a cart abandonment rate of close to 50% (measured via Google Analytics data, amongst other means). Never any indication of errors, no messages to the merchant's paypal account indicating anything was wrong with the data being sent. Just. A. Long. Delay. If you were patient the cart would appear with the item(s) displayed.

My friend ended up shuttering her business at the end of 2011, for multiple reasons, but the abandonment rate was certainly one of them.

Had the business not closed I was going to try shifting to maintaining the cart on the site and doing "upload cart" to Paypal to see if that sped things up, but we never got to try it.

So, lack of precision in documentation, performance, lack of diagnostic information [aside: we didn't see the performance hit using the sandbox, solely in production].

sp332• 14 years ago

It's the way you completely stonewall people who are trying to fix their accounts. If you give each person a clear statement of what the problem with their account is, and show some willingness to work with them to get it back to normal, it would solve 95% of your PR problem.

This article is a very good summary of some high-profile people you've hurt, and specific steps you should take to fix your reputation. http://techcrunch.com/2011/12/06/paypal-account-freeze/

Oh and this is just unreasonable: http://christianowens.com/post/15771850658/my-recent-experie...

duncan_bayne• 14 years ago

My list, in order:

- end the Wikileaks blockade; support free speech & individual rights not censorship & corporatism

- be clearer in your API documentation when certain features don't work in certain areas (e.g. recurring payments in Australia, several years ago, wasted nights coding, argh ...)

- allow me to choose a credit card as my default payment method; I know it's better for _you_ if I use a savings account, but _I'm_ the customer

- allow PayPal to be used for the purchase of firearms & related equipment

nreece• 14 years ago

Some thoughts..

1. If PayPal wants some hacker love, they'll have to start acting more like one and less like a big corporate/bank. Start with a cleaner "developer friendly" redesigned website and API documentation.

2. Fix subscriptions (see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3588446). Most startups (largely SaaS) charge a recurring amount and PayPal subscriptions are not at all easy to integrate (see how Stripe and SaaSy do it).

3. Consolidate (see Apple and Google). Remove less popular products and focus on the most popular ones.

mansolo• 14 years ago

I use PayPal every day, numerous times in a day, but I will jump ship in a nanosecond if PayPal gets a real competitor.

Here is my list why PayPal is (a necessary) evil:

- The Wikileaks blockade

- The internal staff who deal with refunds and other customer issues. They need to be trained MUCH better, and taught manners and courtesies when interacting with users.

- A lot of nickle and dime-ing me on every transaction, every which way. PayPal makes a mint off of me.

Actually, I agree with Duncan_bayne's list, except for buying firearms online with the service. I'm in vehement disagreement with that.

Mophiee• 14 years ago

Well, why might they (PP) be cacking themselves? Didn't Barclaycard open up a rival to Paypal this week? Wouldn't anyone with any sense, or certainly those who don't like being financially raped, use this service? Sure Barclaycard or PP - it's like playing the devil off against himself, but I hate PP so know which I'll be using.

PP - Why can't me and my husband have separate ebay/paypal accounts & use the same bank account to pay through? It's a joint account so stipulating only one of us can use it on one account is ridiculous.

Wikileaks..wikileaks....wikileaks... Don't need to say any more really. Grow some balls PP and stand up to Government. I lost any remote respect I had for you at that point.

traxtech• 14 years ago

Stripe.com-like API, fully documented with curl examples + Act like a real partner : One true, full and comprehensive business account verification at account opening and the associated absolute promise that PP will never hold back money without reasons enumerated in a contract.

pasbesoin• 14 years ago

Transparency. Consistency. Respect.

If you can't do these three, forget it.

(And if you don't know what I'm talking about, you haven't been paying attention to your own situation.)

P.S.

> Posted from a throwaway acct. Gotta be secretive.

Understood, but not a good start.

robgibbons• 14 years ago

- Transparency surrounding freezing of accounts and funds. Mom-and-Pops will go with PayPal anyway, because of their brand power, and the fact that it's so easy to accept money with PayPal. But hackers and people with chops and resources are aware that it happens all the time, know there are alternatives, and are more likely to leverage them.

- Better customer support in general. It's unacceptable for PayPal to be unresponsive for days and weeks when problems happen and there is big money at stake. PayPal needs to study up on what is making Apple so successful in the retail industry and take a hint from their CS staff.

tete• 14 years ago

Because you block accounts.

There are a number of reasons. Use your favorite search engine and look for reasons. Maybe have a look at what reasons people give when canceling their accounts.

Hackers have a problem with Paypal...

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