Science Can Neither Explain Nor Deny the Awesomeness of This Sledding Crow

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/science-can-neither-explain-nor-deny-the-awesomeness-of-this-sledding-crow/251395/

by latchkey • 15 years ago

53 31 15 years ago

theatlantic.com

martinkallstrom6• 15 years ago

This is a red herring in my eyes. I really can't see what everybody else think they are seeing, a crow having fun sliding down the slopes on his newly invented snowboard. I see a crow trying to open the great-smelling lid of a jar to get to the food "inside", having chosen a really lousy location for this activity. The crow is stupid for trying to open an object that is not a container, and stupid for choosing the ridge of a roof to do this. And above all, it is visibly frustrated with the results of it's own stupidity. It's not having fun, it's hungry as hell and can't get to the food it thinks is inside the lid.

UPDATE just to clarify what I'm saying: I'm not questioning the intelligence of crows, I'm questioning the interpretation of this video. There could be crows playing chess and appearing on radio talk shows and I would still argue that this bird is just trying to find food and being stupid in it's choices doing so.

He's mostly standing on the lid picking at it, which is exactly how crows eat. Why on earth would you pick at your snowboard if you were busy having fun in the slopes?

scotty792• 15 years ago

I've seen crows heaving fun earlier. In the mountains I saw two crows hovering on the strong air current (without flapping their wings) just half a meter above the sloped ground cawing loudly. All this for significant period of time for no apparent reason other than just to enjoy themselves.

This one also looks like he's having fun. I don't understand why using lid as a sled is so unbelievable. Some dogs use skateboards to have fun.

martinkallstrom6• 15 years ago

It's not unbelievable at all. I think animals can have loads of fun and crows are awesome. But in this video I see a hungry poor bird, desperate to find some food. It has nothing to do with if crows are intelligent or can have fun, I'm talking about the video.

slavak• 15 years ago

Actually, regardless of what you think of this specific video, crows are pretty damn smart:

[1] http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0808_020808_... (Crows use and figure out how to create tools.) [2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/26/science/26crow.html (Crows recognize human faces and communicate about it.)

martinkallstrom6• 15 years ago

Thanks for the pointers! As a long-term HN addict, I am fully aware of the crow's aptness in some regards.

neilk• 15 years ago

The play of corvids (crows, magpies, ravens, etc.) is pretty well documented. They seem to like sliding or rolling down snowy slopes. It could be some way of bathing themselves but surely just plunging into snow would be more effective. It's also common to see them using twigs as tools. Put it all together and it seems plausible to me that one of them could have learned to snowboard.

I agree it's important to remember that the bird has a mind separated from ours by millions of years. But, at times like this, I like to recall this story about Chinese philosopher Chuang Tzu.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bchaney/ty/joy-of-fishes.htm

jaekwon5• 15 years ago

Hah, I read that as a kid and understood it to mean that we shouldn't anthropomorphize. I guess didn't understand the author at the time.

jaekwon5• 15 years ago

It's plausible, but I disagree for these reasons.

  1.  The crow stands on the lid as soon as it puts it down
  2.  Sometimes the crow waits on the lid
  3.  The crow slides down with the lid instead of flying off of it
  4.  The crow flies back to the same spot
  5.  We already know that crows are rather intelligent

martinkallstrom6• 15 years ago

All five points would also be true in the case he's trying to find food and being frustrated with not getting any. And missing in your list is "6. The crow is spending most of it's energy picking at the lid." which is not explained by the theory that it is just spending a day in the slopes.

scotty792• 15 years ago

Also when lid got stuck in the snow (at the end of the second good slide) crow could peck it for as long as he liked. If he wanted to get something out of the lid he would continue to do it not fly again to the top.

I think the pecking only purpose is to make the lid slide down. Apart from that pecking is the same for him as the touch is for us. We tend to move our hands and fingers a lot to improve our sense of touch when we operate an object.

lobo_tuerto• 15 years ago

"Why on earth would you pick at your snowboard if you were busy having fun in the slopes?"

Well, I could say that's because it wants the snowboard to keep sliding, although he doesn't understand why it has stopped on _white terrain_ (it shold slide you know?). So he goes back to where it knows it can slide down again.

I think it's the same when it went from one roof side back to the other.

scotth• 15 years ago

You think it's trying to get food? Out of a lid? Come on...

schlomie• 15 years ago

I'm always startled when I see speculation or surprise that animals exhibit "human" behavior as though they're not just animated vegetables; for fuck sake, yes, they're sentient beings and experience all the same things we do(!). They're just pretty stupid. ;-)

eurleif4• 15 years ago

Out of curiosity, believing that, are you a vegan or vegetarian? If not, how do you justify killing something that can experience being killed?

jpulgarin• 15 years ago

I believe animals can "experience being killed" and justify my eating of them mostly by the fact that eating them increases my productivity which helps me work more optimally towards reducing the suffering of other sentient beings. Also, I am somewhat selfish.

martinkallstrom6• 15 years ago

Animals can not only experience being killed, there are documented cases where intelligent animals like orcas and dolphins have made and carried out a decision to commit suicide.

Humans in general even justify the killing of humans in special situations, who obviously are capable of experiencing being killed. It's eating the remains that's repulsive in the case of more intelligent species like humans, dolphins or dogs, isn't it?

ajuc3• 15 years ago

Is that even disputed, that animals can "experience being killed"? I don't doubt there are sentient animals, other than humans. For example dogs, crows, dolphins, elephants, probably tons of other. Once animal can predict future and react to it, he can't help but be sentient - otherwise how could he know what part of the future he can change, and what part is the einvironment.

Killing them to eat is IMHO justified by the same reason tiger has the right to kill his prey. We're predators (ok, omnivores, but still - we eat meat).

jaekwon5• 15 years ago

"Human beings have a strong, strong, strong tendency that if we see an animal do something that's analogous to what we do, like use a tool or answer an arithmetic question, we assume that the animal is doing it and understands the situation in the same way we do," he said. "And sometimes that's true but more often it's false."

Those words do nothing but justify one's "animals are non-sentient" hat. I can say the same towards the actions of other individuals. "I have a strong tendency that if I see another human sledding, I assume that the human understands the situation in the same why I do." Why should I assume that another person understands a situation in the same way that I do, whereas a crow cannot? Because the person is of the same species as me? "Species" is just an artificial term that describes the ability to interbreed.

VMG2• 15 years ago

> Beause the person is of the same species as me? That's just an artificial term that describes the ability to interbreed.

The term also describes the biological similarity between the organisms, in this case, similar neural cortices that are vastly different from other animals.

A crow might be sentient, but you will never find it commenting on hacker news.

jaekwon5• 15 years ago

Biological similarity does not imply similarity of understanding. My understanding is also shaped by environment and knowledge as much as my genes.

You and I are similar genetically, but I cannot make any statement about your understanding of any activity (like sledding) as compared to mine, because we (or at least I) do not know how to compare "understanding" between two beings.

The crow's neural circuitry is different from yours or mine, but the "same" software can run in many different architectures.

Never say never :)

ck2• 15 years ago

It's trying to break the item open - they do this in other environments with other kinds of food.

Crows are very intelligent, do not make them angry, seriously, they will remember you.

Science Can Neither Explain Nor Deny the Awesomeness of This Sledding Crow

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