Could The Rebellion Against Traditional Publishing Actually Work?

http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/could-the-rebellion-against-traditional-publishing-actually-work

by sachitgupta • 15 years ago

47 46 15 years ago

skrebbel• 15 years ago

Damn. Got to this link from an HN twitter bot. Didn't notice I was reading a Sebastian Marshall page until halfway through.

SemanticFog2• 15 years ago

Is this guy for real? Or does he transcend our limited notions of "reality"?

DanBC3• 15 years ago

Sebastian identifies as bipolar (cyclothymic).

(http://www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/bipolar...)

(http://mentalhealth.gov/health/publications/bipolar-disorder...)

(http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfo/problems/bipolardi...)

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

Cyclothymic, sure. Stronger emotions, some crashes. Bipolar? Absolutely not. I keep doing probability, causality, and checking my answers - never been full manic.

(Also, medicalization tends to marginalize people, and is frequently used instead of addressing arguments - "oh he's bipolar, that's why he's doing this - aside from the fact that I'm not, it's sloppy thinking; it's effective rhetorically but indicates weak ethics and minimal regard for truth and accuracy)

acangiano• 15 years ago

I'm afraid that in its current incarnation, your comment doesn't amount to much more than an insult towards the author. I would elaborate on what makes this crazy in your opinion, and others may discuss your argument.

SemanticFog2• 15 years ago

This is the tech equivalent of being trapped in a Portlandia skit. You guys are taking his parody seriously...

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

Hi. I'm real. So -

You know how you look back at previous historical eras, and the people had these obviously backwards and stupid views, and how could they possibly not get it?

We live in one of those eras, too.

I try not to. Social decorum? A lot of it's there for good reason. But a lot of it isn't.

keeptrying• 15 years ago

Self publishing maybe the future but it's going to take a while to happen. This article on the other hand is pure marketing.

sathishmanohar• 15 years ago

I read, "All of his cut is directly going to charity". It kinda nulls the argument, even if its marketing.

nbashaw• 15 years ago

Why does this guy keep getting upvoted on HN?

DanBC3• 15 years ago

Because if you don't listen / read too carefully you hear the occasional good thing ("There's a bunch of good people in the chain of making a book; let's treat those people well") and you have it delivered with great enthusiasm and vigour, and some people seem to be able to ignore the copious amounts of ahem additional commentary that is delivered.

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

Dude, your style is somewhat persuasive but it's all rhetorical techniques - you use lots of false assumptions and imply facts that aren't true.

This statement here - you're doing it again. But a more concrete example was where you said "funny that the guy does this after making lots of money" - see, it's nasty, it's an assumption that's actually untrue.

So, I said that's false. Did you correct it? Nope. You throw out these assumptions when you don't know what you're talking about, and don't own it when you're wrong.

So - cut that out and get an actual discussion going.

Actually go read an article, think about the arguments made, and address the good and bad points.

Start by summarizing an article - "I think the author is saying X." Then, follow up with if you partially agree or disagree. Cut out this assumptive hand-waving rhetoric thing you do.

zackzackzack• 15 years ago

There is much to be said about name recognition. He's been an active community member for a few years and I think people are interested in watching him rationally go irrational.

I've read his blog for awhile now and he paints an interesting portrait of himself. At the same time that he is rallying for the human condition and trying to get people to stand up, he talks of taking over the world and compares himself to dictators. He gave himself the diagnosis of a type of mania, but hasn't really sought treatment for it or even a valid diagnosis. In the past few months his writing has become more and more unstable.

And that intrigues me. Whenever I become unstable in any way, my writing tends to dry up. I retreat within myself to find inner stability. I do things to excess, cut ties, etc. etc. If I extrapolate my behavior over to him (WARNING: dangerous assumption here), then it seems like he is becoming more stable mentally. He is writing on more focused topics, connecting with more people, trying to do better work, being more public about what he is doing.

Maybe he has come to accept the idea of a public failure not meaning much to him and is just putting it out there. Maybe he is becoming more accustomed to the idea that he might just be unstable mentally and can therefore let it shine through.The change in writing topics and styles obviously reflects a change in Sebastian.

Does it reflect a change in how he writes or a change in how he thinks though? Most people here are pointing and yelling "Train Wreck! Watch out!" and worrying that he has changed for the worse mentally. But if you read his stuff, he refers to earlier dark periods in his life. He's stared into bays and thought of drowning as being a better outcome for his life. He sounds like he lost a business at some point in his early 20's or it failed or something just didn't work.

So I don't really think that he has changed mentally. All this was there and has been there since he started writing. To me, it just seems like he is saying "Fuck this, I am going to write about what I really think about." It's more of a change in his style of writing, the relative truth he is willing to let out, than, "Oh shit, finna be a crazy mofo from now on."

Or he could just be going crazy. Or both. Perspective from a casual observer here.

phoboslab• 15 years ago

I read a few paragraphs of this blog post, but gave up eventually. I didn't understand what he was trying to say at all. I thought this was because English is not my first language, but after looking at a few other posts in his blog, I'm now convinced it's just bad writing.

Everything is horribly out of context. I don't know any of names mentioned. This post - his whole blog really - sounds more like a (badly written) email to the people who have more insight in this exact situation.

Word of advice: if you write a blog, don't assume your readers read all your previous posts. Took me a few years to realize this myself.

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

Didn't realize this one would get so popular.

It started with this -

http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/an-open-letter-to-simon-and...

russell• 15 years ago

Charlie Stross, top SF author and HNer, has a series of articles describing the publishing process: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/common-m.... He argues that printing and distributing books is only a small part of the process. A polished book still needs literary agents,editors, proof readers, etc. Recommended for the curious.

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

I 100% agree and have massive respect for everyone involved in the publishing process - except the lawyers, bureaucrats, and suits who are screwing it up for everyone.

Artists, editors, copy-editors, distributors, and so on all have immense value. So do ethical agents. But the industry badly needs reform and modernization.

Turing_Machine• 15 years ago

Others have pointed out that all of those services can be purchased for a flat rate, i.e. without handing over 90% of the revenue from your book.

kghose2• 15 years ago

russel - those articles are informative and entertaining. Thanks for the link.

jackfoxy• 15 years ago

Sebastian, may I ask what your return on the one week book is to date?

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

Initial costs were around $10,000.

The cash return is negative.

The art, doing cool stuff, working with good people, and changing the world return is massive.

(And my share goes to charity anyways, so my personal financial return is capped at zero. This isn't a money thing for me, I had a 180 degree flip recently where I started despising money. Interestingly, I started getting paid a lot more too. Strange world.)

kghose2• 15 years ago

I read about 50% of the letter (http://www.sebastianmarshall.com/an-open-letter-to-simon-and...)

What I felt was unprofessional behavior on the part of the publisher was not sticking to deadlines for payment.

However, I did feel that the author complaining his ideas for jacket design were not taken seriously is a bit diva-like behavior.

I do think, that with all the software tools we have out (spell checker, grammar checkers etc) it should be quite possible to self-publish (using a print on demand service for example, and for ebooks, perhaps you can even design your own site).

The only thing I think is how will your book get publicity if you don't have a publisher behind you. Perhaps Cory Doctorow's model (of putting samples on line) is good, but how do you get your initial break?

lhnz2• 15 years ago

Yes, "the rebellion" against traditional publishing might actually work. But whose rebellion are you actually talking about? Most people that are turning to self-publishing are doing this simply because it is a cheaper way of getting their books out, not as a rebellion at traditional publishers... On the other hand, you've clearly got no choice: few are going to want to publish your work now, so how can what you're doing be considered a rebellion? It appears to be your only option.

Aside from this, I'm pretty sure what I'm looking at is an extremely weird/negative way of marketing your book. However, this might actually work. I'm honestly feeling pretty curious in what you've written...

That said, I'd like to point out:

1. Why are you attempting to market your book using your private business drama? The whole sale depends on me trusting in your personality, acumen and ethic. You're not coming across as a strategic thinker. You're coming across as a hothead. Pause and think about that.

2. Why are you picking a fight with a far stronger animal than yourself? Be realistic: settle the score and do something of value. Don't start fights that you're not resourced to fight. Don't.

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

> 2. Why are you picking a fight with a far stronger animal than yourself? Be realistic: settle the score and do something of value.

You're talking about rational self-interest, I'm talking about forcing an industry that's crucial and operating badly to step their game up.

It's not rational self-interested, that's for damn sure. It's a principled stand.

(Also, this is just a hobby, I have multiple day jobs.)

tankenmate• 15 years ago

tldr;

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"

lhnz2• 15 years ago

> I'm talking about forcing an industry that's crucial and operating badly to step their game up.

No you're not. They're not banging on your door to work with you. They don't care about your business and they certainly won't want to hear your advice. Self-publishing your book is not some big, noble game-changing stand that is going to topple the publishing industry. A disinterested observer might call all of this a tantrum...

It's simply not that easy to get people to "step their game up". It generally requires higher status: a powerful negotiating position, sense of shared purpose or dictatorial leadership over them. You have neither. What you do have is your own time and your own life. Use this wisely: don't waste any of your effort reacting to people in this way. If you truly wish to get them to "step their game up" then create a startup and directly compete with them. Self-publishing will take a while to scale but a startup could act as a catalyst...

Distilled, here's my advice:

When you're angry at people but lack an actionable plan on how to deal with them ignore them. Instead: find what you can control and use it to create value.

bobwebb• 15 years ago

1. Honestly, I don't think this article is about presenting an audacious new method of bookselling. It's just a clever-if-it-wasn't-so-obvious way of selling his new book. Which is fine, I suppose, but it doesn't make this article especially informative or interesting. Bit of a shame, really.

2. Good point, It's worth noting that many companies that changed how products were bought and sold (e.g. iTunes, Netflix, Steam) did so by offering a product that was better than what the competition offered, not sticking two fingers up at The Man for its own sake.

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

I'm heading to bed. Merry Christmas everyone, thanks for all the support and for the criticism too. The former means so much to me, the latter gives me an opportunity to check my facts and sincerity and either win you over or have it out in some virtuous conflict :)

stillhatin4• 15 years ago

I think Sebastian really is the next Tim Ferriss, but not at all in a good way. I think he's all talk and almost no results, and he's trying to spin that into a success that then justifies him tooting his own horn as a "strategist" (what the fuck?). All over his blog, all over his comments on HN, he makes himself out to be this amazing business guru, juggling 27 world-changing projects at a time, upending major industries with a stroke of his pen. This is from a comment in this thread:

In the last four weeks, I was able to hire like 30-40 people or so, keep six or so projects running, do a deal with a top hotel chain and top jeweler, put out a book in a week, lead a struggle for reform against traditional publishing, made $38,500, shot a bunch of videos, had a bunch of fun, hired an architect to build an orphanage in Ulaanbaatar, and so on.

I call bullshit on all of it. Well, almost all of it; maybe he had fun. Sebastian is always waving his hands and declaring things like this, but there's just no evidence. None. Zip, zilch. Why doesn't he ever post any proof of his results? Why no links to any of these projects, no naming of the major companies he's helping change? He clearly has no problem with self-promotion, so it's not out of a sense of modesty. Anyone who has ever hired knows that if you managed to hire 30-40 people in a month, you don't have time for anything else. My guess is that he emailed 30-40 people on the internet and maybe hired one or two for some small contract work.

Even in this whole thing with S&S, he seems to miss the possibility that not only might they not really care that they lost him, they might be glad. Maybe they took a hard look at the drivel he was churning out and realized that they were better off with the relationship severed.

Enough talking, Sebastian. Put your head down and fucking build something, then you can write a book in ten or twenty years and tell us about it. We don't need another vapid self-promoter selling books exhorting people to manifest themselves to greatness.

And if I'm way off and you really are what you portray yourself as, post some fucking proof. Don't just give us the old "you're free to believe me or not" bullshit that every scammer says. You want some real personal brand equity? All it takes is some proof of the results you're constantly harping on.

lionhearted13• 15 years ago

This is the most important line in your comment -

> Put your head down and fucking build something, then you can write a book in ten or twenty years and tell us about it.

Because it shows how you think. "How dare you! Put your head down and grind for 20 years!! That's how it's done!"

No, really. It doesn't take grinding for 10 to 20 years to make a meaningful impact on the world.

> And if I'm way off and you really are what you portray yourself as, post some fucking proof.

Ok, I tell you what. How much are you going to donate to my orphanage if I post some proof - a contract, a bank statement, something like that. You tell me what proof is, but you also tell me what you're going to do to eat shit after I give you your proof, and you're on.

stillhatin4• 15 years ago

Sad. You won't stop running your mouth about how impressive you are, but when asked for some proof or evidence of any kind, you immediately go on the defensive. Why don't we already have the evidence? It's definitely not modesty. And the publicity would only help your projects. The only reason you haven't posted any kind of proof or evidence of your outlandish claims of building an empire is because you're all hot air. All hat, no cattle.

So I'll donate whatever you like to your orphanage, if it exists. As in, if you have an orphanage that you own or created or sponsor at least mostly by yourself. But you don't. You probably have plans for one, but that's all.

Seriously, you're a smart guy with a lot of passion and ideas. But you haven't actually done anything, and every time I read a word of what you've written, I roll my eyes because you're such a blowhard. And with no justification.

The biggest thing in all of this S&S story that makes me think the publishing industry might be on the verge of collapse is that they agreed to publish the first book of a self-described strategist with no track record, no experience, no nothing. But it sounds like you helped them solve that problem.

stillhatin4• 15 years ago

HOLY. SHIT.

I'd like to retract my Tim Ferris comments. While I think he's a little self-promotion-ey without having done much, he's a genuinely nice guy and a good marketer. And comparing him to Sebastian is not at all apt, I've just realized.

I hadn't actually watched your videos, Sebastian. You need help. Not like a life coach, but a real therapist, probably one who can prescribe medication. You genuinely have a screw loose or something. Did you seriously curse out your agent (for what felt like hours) because you had trouble coordinating a time to do a skype call?!?

And then you made a movie with your shirt off, ranting at the executives at S&S and at your agent about how you're going to destroy them all?

I know you think you're this crazy wildcard guy and you're hated by most and loved by a few, but you're wrong. You're a crazy wildcard guy, but you're about as unprofessional as I can imagine and you're never going to have a positive impact in the world unless you get the help you need.

I've met and worked with hundreds of true professionals over the years, and I don't know of any that would work with you after seeing a stunt like this. Apparently if someone you're working with fails to return an email fast enough, they'll be treated to a video of a shirtless pudgy guy telling them to fuck off on youtube. Not exactly confidence-inspiring.

Seek help.

mkramlich• 15 years ago

In a world where free blog software and PayPal buttons exist I just don't see the need for drama and hand-wringing over the publishing industry. Write stuff. Put it out there. Charge for it. If its any good it will catch on, enough, eventually, and in proportion to how many people like it. The only bureaucracy or industry inertia or "bad treatment" you potentially expose youself to are the ones you knowingly and voluntarily involve. Get over it, move on and concentrate on writing and delivering.

xinjiang• 15 years ago

Sabastian, this battle with S&S is nothing. The real battle is inside of you.

You are a smart and interesting person with a lot of weapons. Call a cease-fire. Refocus your mind and observe your inner space. Then make a decision that will help as many people as possible.

Happy holidays and a peaceful 2012!

Could The Rebellion Against Traditional Publishing Actually Work?

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