Man sells 3D-printed firearms to a buyback program for $21,000

https://interestingengineering.com/culture/man-makes-usd21000-by-selling-3d-printed-guns

by chelmzy • 4 years ago

64 128 4 years ago

rolph9• 4 years ago

“And it ended with the guy and a lady from the budget office finally coming around with the 42 gift cards and counting them in front of me," said Kem. "$21,000 in $500 gift cards."

Meanwhile, on Wednesday, a spokesperson at the Attorney General's Office released the following statement:

“It’s shameful that this individual exploited a program that has successfully taken thousands of guns off the streets to protect our communities from gun violence. We have partnered with local police throughout the state to recover more than 3,500 guns, and one individual’s greedy behavior won’t tarnish our work to promote public safety. We have adjusted our policies to ensure that no one can exploit this program again for personal gain.”

aeneasmackenzie2• 4 years ago

We have adjusted our policies to ensure that no one can exploit this program again for personal gain.

So any item that the NY AG gun buyback program will not purchase is thus legally not a gun in NY, right? If it's not worth buying to get it off the streets, they must be fine with it on the streets. This would include 3d printed AR lowers and FGC-9s at least. I think they will not implement this policy's consequences fairly.

viraptor2• 4 years ago

No, it does not mean that. Getting away with a loophole a few times and causing the rules to get adjusted to account for a grift does not change the law in general.

rolph9• 4 years ago

this interesting as private manufacture firearm [PMF] can not be for sale or barter, they are to be for own personal use.

it could be said [valid or not] these 3D PMF were manuactured with intent to sell, regardless of business status.

nivertech• 4 years ago

Cobra effect

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive#The_origina...

bryanlarsen• 4 years ago

The difference is that this hole was exploited once and since been plugged.

Krisjohn• 4 years ago

There is no difference, because you don't know how many other guns were 3D printed or milled for this buyback scheme that now won't be traded in. Maybe there will be an increase in ghost guns caused by the policy and its subsequent change.

bertil• 4 years ago

Not really: in that case, no one is dupe. It’s just a kid who is being blatantly churlish and wasting everyone else’s money.

recursive• 4 years ago

We don't know if it's being wasted. He could be spending it on building orphanages.

nsxwolf2• 4 years ago

I would fault the officials that set up the gun buyback program with wasting everyone's money.

silexia• 4 years ago

Government regulations are not the answer.

kennywinker8• 4 years ago

Yeah! Government regulations have never solved anything, ever! Except automobile safety, food safety, workplace safety, medical safety, and a few other things, but other than that they've NEVER solved ANYTHING!

cm423• 4 years ago

Regulate me harder, daddy!

tekla• 4 years ago

Warms my heart to see 3D Printing to be this mature now

https://www.wktv.com/news/local/nyag-changes-gun-buyback-rul...

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/houston-gun-buyback/...

Kamq4• 4 years ago

Which brings to mind a question. What's the point of a gun buyback if they won't accept 3D printed guns?

If it's to get guns off the street, it seems like you'd explicitly want to get cheap guns that are hard to trace (such as 3D printed guns).

Or is this just turning into a ceremonial thing that we do because it made sense at one time?

kube-system19• 4 years ago

What's the point of a gun buyback if they won't accept 3D printed guns?

It takes guns off the street that criminals actually use?

We'd probably decrease gun crime if we gave criminals garbage like this:

https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/wktv.com/conten...

rolph9• 4 years ago

the data, is also of utility. you dont just get guns of the street, you get intelligence regarding traffic, and production.

hotpotamus• 4 years ago

Indeed, you could probably make good money selling untraceable 3d printed guns to anyone who wants one.

xadhominemx2• 4 years ago

Why does it warm your heart? Even if you’re pro 2A, why would you want to undermine buy back programs, which even in the least charitable description remove unwanted firearms which could otherwise be stolen or end up in the hands of a child?

rpmisms2• 4 years ago

Because idiots sell their incredibly valuable inherited antiques, including exceptionally rare legal machine guns, which a) are not used in crime, as a rule, and b) are really cool.

cfeduke• 4 years ago

Based on the search results and how the copy is replicated across multiple "news" domains this story is probably a fake.

mynameishere• 4 years ago

Typically two kinds of guns will be exchanged in such a program. Guns worth less than the offer, making it a kind of cash-for-clunkers boondoggle, and stolen guns. This guy came up with a third grift. So what?

aeneasmackenzie2• 4 years ago

This has been done before, 3d printing just makes it easier. See the GB-22[0] aka "Gun Buyback 22"

0: https://serbu.com/gb-22-plans/

Steltek• 4 years ago

Alright, so he...

1. Spent time, electricity, and filament printing lowers and other components. He's a beginner using a $200 printer so the failure rate was probably pretty high.

2. He drove from NY to Utah

3. He haggled all day before getting paid out for only 42 of his 100 "guns"

And he thinks he's making Utah's buyback program look foolish? This guy wasted a stupendous amount of time and money.

tengbretson• 4 years ago

He walked away with a payout nearly equal to the median individual yearly income in my area for a week or two of effort.

chroma4• 4 years ago

The article is incorrect. He drove to Utica, NY, which took him six hours.[1]

Both filament and electricity are incredibly cheap. His main costs were time, gas, and the risk of being pulled over on his way to the buyback.[2] Instead of printing full frames (which would take longer and use more filament), he printed a bunch of auto sears, which convert a semi-auto AR-15 to full auto. By the ATF's definition, auto sears are considered machine guns, so he got $350 per machine gun. Those auto sears are tiny. I doubt he spent more than a week of printer time on the whole endeavor.

1. https://twitter.com/kem_regik/status/1570173184640520195

2. https://twitter.com/kem_regik/status/1570175250989715456

kennywinker8• 4 years ago

Let's napkin that - i've never 3d printed a gun, so I'm deliberately choosing super high estimates:

$200 printer, $5 of filament each, 150 prints (high failure rate) 20 hours of printing each, 20*150 = 3000 hours of print time (125 days), 125 days of electricity for a 3d printer running at full capacity (idk but let's call it $500 to be safe), three day's drive to utah $100/night + gas (gasbuddy says ~$400) so total $1000

total: $2450

earnings: $21,000

profit less materials/energy costs: $18,550

hourly wage for working 8 hours a day on this for 125 days: $18.55

doesn't sound like he wasted any time or money, and I assume he worked much more like 2-4 hours a day on it which would mean it payed $37-75/hour.

core-utility6• 4 years ago

3D printing is largely "set and forget" too, with occasional monitoring. A remote employee can easily spend less than 20 minutes per day babysitting the printer while going on with their regular life.

mizzack• 4 years ago

He printed auto sears. Those can't take more than 15 mins apiece. $21k of "machine guns" fit in a quart ziploc bag. Also 10 years in federal prison if you're caught in possession of one.

ianferrel• 4 years ago

You can't drive from upstate New York to Utah in 6 hours. Speculation above is that he drove to Utica, which is in New York, and which makes sense because the buyback program was run by a New York official.

I don't know how much time or electricity it took, but $21k is a lot of money. I bet his profit after costs was well over $10k. Seems like pretty good money to me.

cm423• 4 years ago

What kind of chump would waste an entire week and a couple hundred bucks to make $20k?? I do that in an hour.

At least 38% of them are off the streets now, which is all that really matters.

Based on the overwhelming and scientifically-proven (and 4/10 doctor-recommended!) success of this program, it should be implemented everywhere, but at $750-$1,000 per gun, because more == better.

rolph9• 4 years ago

there are people who would believe that 20K would set them up for life.

some people are incredibly indigant, eating handmedown food, feeling elated that the days work ends in exchange of 20$ worth of beer cans.

rolph9• 4 years ago

it doesnt have to work, only potential to work when assembled, otherwise the whole federal definition of receiver, and firearm starts to crumble into something approaching reality.

for example a 2x4 profiled to fit an AR upper, and having one [!] hole [!] drilled where the trigger group belongs, is considered a firearm; if you dont drill in to the FCG pocket you have a lower blank [not a firearm yet]

open-paren• 4 years ago

I know the article had it wrong, but Salt Lake County in Utah did have a foolish gun buy back program. They offered just $100 per "assault rifle" and $50 for other kinds _in gas gift cards_. If I remember correctly, they got maybe 30 guns total.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2022/6/3/23153532/salt-lake-cit...

kube-system19• 4 years ago

"Gun buybacks are a fantastic way of showing, number one, that your policies don't work, and, number 2, you're creating perverse demand. You're causing people to show up to these events, and, they don't actually reduce crime whatsoever."

Of course, criminals aren't going to turn in their guns. Gun buybacks have always just been useful for their second order effects -- forgotten guns in attics being stolen, found by kids, etc.

Yes, people take advantage of these events. There's not much of a way to filter participants by intent. People turn in broken or rusty junk that is not of danger anyway. Doing it with a junk plastic gun is not much different than doing the same with junk guns made from other materials. But the bottom line is I don't think anyone ever thought that the results of these events would be 1-for-1 removal of crime guns off the street.

wyldfire2• 4 years ago

I don't think anyone ever thought that the results of these events would be 1-for-1 removal of crime guns off the street.

I don't think I would've guessed it but apparently firearm deaths exceed motor vehicle traffic deaths in the US. Score one for auto safety. But regarding "stolen, found by kids, etc." -- there's lots of accidental deaths and injuries from kids finding guns. So I think you're right -- that's exactly the kind of thing buybacks help reduce.

    Motor vehicle traffic deaths
    Number of deaths: 40,698
    Deaths per 100,000 population: 12.4

    All firearm deaths
    Number of deaths: 45,222
    Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.7

Source: National Vital Statistics System – Mortality Data (2020) via CDC WONDER

thatswrong0• 4 years ago

In the US, 60% of firearm deaths are from suicide. There are, on the other hand, ~430 accidental firearm deaths per year. Not saying reducing accidental deaths isn't a good thing, but in terms of efficacy, the dollar spent per reduced death, I feel like there might be better ways other than a buyback program.

Dracophoenix2• 4 years ago

The firearm numbers don't distinguish between suicides, accidental deaths, self-defense, and homicides whether intended or negligent.

cronix• 4 years ago

We also had a lot of lockdowns/work from home/etc in 2020, which prevented a lot of people from driving, probably lowering that driving stat. It would be interesting to get statistics for a non-covid year.

nsxwolf2• 4 years ago

The reduction in accidents and suicides from gun buyback programs sounds essentially impossible to measure.

These programs cost money so they should be justified with real evidence. I understand it isn't very much money, and studying it would likely cost orders of magnitude more. There's other costs though, like an erosion of belief in government competence.

core-utility6• 4 years ago

If all it takes for a "forgotten" attic gun to be secured is something to trigger those gun owners to take action on securing them, a simple ad campaign would be a lot cheaper than $500 gift cards.

kube-system19• 4 years ago

I wouldn't expect a $21,000 ad campaign to have much effect either.

kennywinker8• 4 years ago

a simple ad campaign

Ads of course are free and universally effective, as we all know.

aksss4• 4 years ago

criminals aren't going to turn in their guns

The programs often encourage them to through "no questions asked"/amnesty policies. These programs are a great way to launder a dirty gun, but criminals are hardly likely to turn in a "clean" gun.

kube-system19• 4 years ago

Criminals might be dumb, but they're not dumb enough to hand a murder weapon to a cop regardless of what they say.

zanderz• 4 years ago

A shoulder mounted anti-tank rocket was once turned over at a gun buyback in San Francisco: https://abc7news.com/san-francisco-gun-buyback-bazooka-guns/... I think it is probably worth a lot of taxpayer money to get that off the streets. More broadly, without wading into 2nd amendment arguments and just viewed as a public health issue, it seems possible that fewer guns in the general population equals fewer gun deaths. Whether these buybacks make any dent at all is a different question - one that would likely be easier to answer if political pressure hadn't halted government studies of gun safety https://www.npr.org/2018/04/05/599773911/how-the-nra-worked-...

kube-system19• 4 years ago

I think it is probably worth a lot of taxpayer money to get that off the streets.

That AT4 is a single-shot disposable weapon, cannot be reloaded, and is not reusable.

chroma4• 4 years ago

The first person I know of to do this was at a gun buyback in Houston in August. He printed 63 single shot .22s and got $6,200 for it.[1] He then used that money to buy a bunch of guns for himself and his daughter. The guy who made $21,000 says he was inspired by the reward from the Houston buyback.[2] He drove six hours to Utica, not Utah[3] and along with three other guys, managed to get $45,000 from the Utica Police Department. One of those three bragged about getting $5,000 for a week of printing plastic and $7 worth of screws.[4]

These people do this for two reasons. First, it's profitable (though that's likely to change as the buyback programs begin to exclude 3D printed guns). Second, it shows that it is incredibly cheap and easy to make firearms and illegal parts. Anyone with a $200 printer can build a safe and reliable semi-automatic handgun. It's even easier to build devices that convert a semi-auto firearm to full auto. Like the war on drugs, the policymakers have lost, they just don't know it yet.

1. https://twitter.com/CobraEconomics/status/155541335225971916...

2. https://twitter.com/kem_regik/status/1570191067235946496

3. https://twitter.com/kem_regik/status/1570173184640520195

4. https://twitter.com/ricky2a3d/status/1570306811588141061

sschueller• 4 years ago

"Anyone with a $200 printer can build a safe and reliable semi-automatic handgun."

I highly doubt that. Maybe if you have most of it out of other parts but a fully printed handgun will fail after just a few shots and it isn't safe in any shape or form. I have 3d prints fall apart on their own if there are issues with the printer or material.

MichaelCollins10• 4 years ago

Anybody with $50 can build themselves a safe and reliable slamfire shotgun made out of metal. The hardware store employees will even cut the pipe for you. These can be sold to police buyback programs for a huge profit, or simply used as shotguns normally are used.

The only way to stop this is to restrict the availability of ammunition, which is feasible in some countries but not America.

chroma4• 4 years ago

In the US, many pressure-bearing components such as barrels are not controlled parts. You print the frame or lower receiver, then use normal parts that are compatible. This has been done for MP5s[1], AKs[2], Glocks[3], and even AR-10s in big calibers like .308.[4]

Even if barrels required as much effort to get as a complete gun, there are already designs that use no gun parts. The FCG-9[5] is the most popular one. It's actually pretty easy to ECM your own barrel at home. Hundreds of people have built guns like these using zero gun parts.[6] They're reliable and accurate enough that they're being used by Burmese rebels.[7]

1. https://twitter.com/NaviGoBoom/status/1577447210173751296

2. https://twitter.com/NaviGoBoom/status/1577019965458169856

3. https://twitter.com/NaviGoBoom/status/1574237027125559297

4. https://twitter.com/NaviGoBoom/status/1533508555994800128

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FGC-9

6. https://twitter.com/WhichJoeSchmoe/status/156254824438707814...

7. https://twitter.com/jake_hanrahan/status/1468966318317531140

kube-system19• 4 years ago

Anyone with a $200 printer can build a safe and reliable semi-automatic handgun.

Maybe you can print a lower that will sort of work a few times, after you buy professionally machined parts for all of the critical parts of the gun.

People make this statement because it is technically true, but all they're going to accomplish is a push for high-pressure parts to be serialized.

yellowapple7• 4 years ago

If you're able to cheaply print firearms, then it doesn't really matter too much if those firearms end up being disposable; if it breaks, just print another one.

As for machining parts out of metal, people can and do build "slamfire" shotguns out of two pipes and a nail. Needless to say, I think you're overestimating the difficulty of shopping around at Home Depot.

MichaelCollins10• 4 years ago

professionally machined parts

You're overstating the requirement; amateurly machined barrels work fine and that'll all you need for an FGC-9. The FGC-9 weldless bolt can be made by a monkey with an angle grinder. The FGC-9 was specifically designed with European regulations in mind. FGC-9's can be built by idiots using common garage tools, built out of commonly available materials. You cannot stop it with any degree of regulation.

You can restrict the availability of suitable ammunition. That will be the ultimate outcome if politicians continue to let guns scare them. It's a largely unfounded fear; there aren't many politicians getting shot with any kind of gun, let alone homemade ones. Even in America where professionally made guns are easy to get, politicians rarely get shot.

chroma4• 4 years ago

I have plastic AR lowers that are still working perfectly after thousands of rounds. If you use a monolithic design (built-in buffer tube & pistol grip) and make it out of glass-filled nylon, it's as durable as an aluminum lower.[1]

I could see a push for treating pressure-bearing parts as firearms, but I don't think it'd fly federally. Also unless you required everyone to serialize their existing barrels (which amounts to registration) it'd be impossible to convict anyone unless you could prove they made the barrel after the law was passed. Then you'd get into questions such as, "What is a barrel?", because at some point you're just banning certain diameter pipes. If someone invents a new caliber, does that mean we have to restrict pipes of that diameter? It quickly gets absurd. And considering the pace at which fabrication technology is improving, I doubt such restrictions would do much in the long run.

1. You can even do push-ups on it: https://twitter.com/DrDeath1776/status/1568280857835610113

Glyptodon• 4 years ago

This is what really bothers me about the gun debate. Stuff like the current mess around reclassifying "pistol" braces is utterly asinine and has more or less zero connection to making anything safer for anyone. But guns are bad so using asinine nonsense to create more felons must be good I guess?

It's so obvious that most of the arguments applicable to the War on Drugs or Prohibition apply to guns, but guns are so much more visceral to many that nobody sees it.

And there's so much of that kind of nonsense, like laws focused on whether non-pistols have pistol grips. It's no wonder that gun laws generate a bunch of people who hate gun laws, and it's no wonder that the whole thing is a feedback loop of institutional destruction and delegitimization. Much like laws restricting Abortions were before the Theocrats managed to create a supreme ecumenical council.

What I'm not looking forward to is that the utter lack of legitimacy coupled with the low quality opinions this ecumenical council is creating means that there will eventually be a successful backlash if the nation doesn't implode, and that backlash is going to bring back even more full-throttle versions of these lost and impossible laws at a time when they will be guaranteed to be even less effective than they are now.

rolph9• 4 years ago

back in the 30s USA viewed a number of socialmovement groups, and ethnic "mafias" as a direct threat to existence, that resulted in the gun control act.

thus immigrants, and other groups were not allowed handguns,and the restriction of Short barrel rifles was incurred. it was very important to curtail common carry of easily concealable firearms, by these groups.

the interesting thing about the AR platform is the buffer tube, projecting from the rear of the weapon, its a natural position for a shoulder stock. its possible to do away with this, using a blowback operated caliber like 9mm luger, but these in .223 cal need to have the spring and mass to push onto.

so we get the AR 15 with a short barrel [<16"] leave out the shoulder stock and call it a pistol as its [intended to shoot 1 handed] if it has no other hand grips.

you push that buffer tube, against your shoulder, and its not comfortable but it works as is to shoulder the weapon. next you massage the shoulder stock wrist brace definitions so you end up with a wrist brace that has features making it a comfortable shouldering. over time the AR platform evaded the definition of a short barrel rifle, and the crackdown, is on building pistols with features allowing rifle like usage, but remaining concealable, and easily moved in/out of vehilces.

BonoboIO• 4 years ago

Well, that’s not a nice thing to do, but I m amazed by his ingenuity.

joshcryer• 4 years ago

The Iron Pipeline is responsible for the vast majority of guns used in crimes in NY, which NY has virtually no power over. Guys going out of state and buying guns in private straw purchases to resell or trade on the market back in NY. This guy only shows how easily transporting guns across state lines is. The half solution has always been to regulate the private sell of guns (you have to do a background check in most states to buy a gun but not in a private sale) but even that is a half measure because if you did it private gun ownership "thefts" would skyrocket.

zerocrates• 4 years ago

Man, I had no idea people were so hostile to gun buybacks.

cm423• 4 years ago

Far from hostile, he seems like their biggest fan and number one contributor.

jakebasile3• 4 years ago

The very term is a lie. These guns were almost surely never owned by the government, so it is not buying anything back. Guns do not belong to the government by default. The word has also been used to describe involuntary confiscation of weapons, which many people who value their rights would oppose in the strongest terms.

In addition, guns have value to people for more than functionality. There's endless stories of people selling "back" their grandpa's WW2 take back piece that would be worth thousands of dollars to the right collector and would be restored and enjoyed for decades, only for a police officer to at best "lose" it in transport or more likely send it to be melted down for scrap so someone could get a $50 gift card and local police can post to Twitter about how another dangerous war relic is off the streets.

kennywinker8• 4 years ago

Buyback as in you bought it from somewhere, and the government buys it from you. Buyback doesn't, to me anyway, imply that the government sold it to you in the first place.

agensaequivocum2• 4 years ago

They are awful and do nothing except waste taxpayer money. If you want to really want to get rid of a gun, you get much more for your money by selling it to a gun store. It can also lead to the destruction of historically interesting guns. Luckily, in this respect, some states such as Arizona which prohibits the state and local governments from destroying firearms. So we they don't do "buybacks" here anymore.

yellowapple7• 4 years ago

I'm less hostile to them now that I know they can make me rich :)

Ancapistani• 4 years ago

Really?

I've literally parked outside a police station in the past with a sign saying "I buy guns for cash". The PD was paying $50-100; I spent about $500 total and ended up with several nice rifles that were inherited by people who knew didn't want them and had no idea of their value.

To be clear, while I paid much less than retail value for them I showed them price comparisons online while talking to them. Some people decided to keep them, some decided to sell to a dealer later, and some people were happy to get $50 more than the police would have given them.

The highlight of that day was an older lady that had a beautiful Mauser 98k that her husband had brought back after fighting in WW2. She said she needed the money and honestly thought the $100 gift card the police department offered was fair. We exchanged numbers and she ended up selling it to a dealer for $900.

MichaelCollins10• 4 years ago

The highlight of that day was an older lady that had a beautiful Mauser 98k that her husband had brought back after fighting in WW2. She said she needed the money and honestly thought the $100 gift card the police department offered was fair. We exchanged numbers and she ended up selling it to a dealer for $900.

This is the aspect of gun buybacks that really rubs me wrong. They take advantage of ignorant and desperate people by not paying the fair market value of the guns. Old widows regularly get scammed out of thousands of dollars by these cops.

Incidentally, paying fair market value for the guns is also the solution to people trying to sell 3d printed crap. Offer them the pennies a plastic recycler might offer for it.

zanethomas• 4 years ago

roflmao

f1shy• 4 years ago

This remembers me to the story of the UK trying to eliminate cobras in India. They offered some money in exchange for a dead cobra. It turned out that the locals started to farm cobras to get the bounty. After the government understood it was not working, they stoped the program. All people farming cobras left them in the wild... at the end the amount of cobras was a multiple as the beginning...

It is difficult to make good public policies.

Man sells 3D-printed firearms to a buyback program for $21,000

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