Writing: A misunderstood activity

https://www.solimanwrites.com/writing-the-most-misunderstood-activity/

by ahsoli • 4 years ago

146 63 4 years ago

garmigula• 4 years ago

Is the point of this article that the author wants to be recognised as being special because they can write well? If so that's ironic in a few ways. Even then the idea that "the majority" thinks writing is easy is counter to my personal experience so I guess one of us is bad at judging the average opinions of people. The article's subheadings are kind of confusing as well because I expected them to be a list of misconceptions but they are instead phases of the author's writing career.

hluska3• 4 years ago

I remember an English professor who I considered an extremely talented writer. He said, “you think I’m talented because you never had to suffer through the dozens of unreadable drafts that my editor had to.”

Later on, I started working with an editor and sure enough, the editor had to suffer through unreadable drafts but the end reader had no idea how incompetent I was. They could be excused for thinking I have a bit of talent when in reality, I just found someone with enough patience to massage my crap.

So I would add in a number four. Yes, it’s important to write. But having a good editor who can see through all the crap you’ve internalized and who can help you deliver the right words?? That’s just about priceless…

jeffreyames• 4 years ago

How did you find an editor? Do you pay them or do they work pro bono?

hluska3• 4 years ago

Funny (and costly) story. My friend Stacey and I started a magazine. Midway through working on the first issue, we realized that we didn’t know a thing about publishing. So, we recruited a third co-founder.

That magazine eventually failed but I was hooked. I started paying her to help me and when her life got too busy, I started paying other editors.

Once I worked with one, I knew exactly what I was looking for so it’s been easy finding editors since. Without that experience, it would have been a lot of trial and error. For example, I can write very quickly. Because of this, I write far better when I work with an editor who really tears my work apart. If an editor sugar coats too much, draft+1 often ends up worse. But if they’re direct and try to hurt my feelings, draft+1 will be closer.

ghaff2• 4 years ago

It really depends. A very good competent friend can help you. For technical, at least adjacent, articles there are online pubs who will work with you so long as the content is at least ok. But no one is going to edit a book for you for free and a publisher has at least a middling high bar to take you on.

fl0012• 4 years ago

That's very true and correct. An editor at help, makes things more clearer. It's clear and clean...

bambax2• 4 years ago

Very true, but it's not easy (or cheap) to find a good editor. There was a Launch HN recently on this very topic I believe.

But, one can learn to be their own editor. It's not easy, it's unnatural, and it's not as good as an external editor, but it's better than nothing. The trick is to change the point of view, walk in the shoes of the reader.

Lutger• 4 years ago

Another trick is to wait. First write the post or email, then leave it alone for a while. This makes it easier to change the point of view.

Somehow I also often find it easier to see possible improvements after I published something. I often edit when possible after posting. It is annoying, but it does have the some effect. Or if I write markdown, render it in some nice formatted view - that also helps to distance a bit.

Kye• 4 years ago

I think it's important for any writer to subject their work to an editor at least once in their lives. No amount of self-directed practice and learning is likely to beat what you find out about your writing by having a whole other brain take a critical look.

ayewo• 4 years ago

Foster had their Launch HN recently to provide on-demand editing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31850439

TameAntelope2• 4 years ago

Two problems with writing: first, it looks easy because it uses the same symbols of speech; second, everyone who was taught the alphabet and basic sentence structures can produce something similar to writing when it’s not. Writers, however, know it’s painfully hard to produce one readable, unambiguous paragraph. On the other hand, casual text producers (read: the majority) think it takes nothing special to write. This amateur attitude makes writing the most misunderstood activity.

There's some irony in this first paragraph being not-so-well written, right?

first, it looks easy because it uses the same symbols of speech

Same symbols as... speaking? as other writing? There's a comparison made here that isn't completed.

second, everyone who was taught the alphabet and basic sentence structures can produce something similar to writing when it’s not.

Same problem; "when some writing is not actually similar to other writing" I assume was the intent, but this is a stilted way of making that point. A better (though longer) way of saying this might be, "Anyone taught the alphabet and English sentence structure can produce 'writing', but what those people produce bears little resemblance to what 'good' writing actually looks like."

I don't really want to go through and pick this whole article apart, I just thought it was interesting the author "chose" to start their article on "good writing is hard" by writing a poor opening paragraph!

hug• 4 years ago

The whole article suffers from poor writing (on an objective scale) from start to finish.

What we don't know is where the author started from: On a subjective scale, they may be a significantly better writer than when they started.

Neither of those things actually good responses to the article, though: Good writing is hard, and the article demonstrates that well.

dgreensp• 4 years ago

Perhaps the author: posits skill when isn’t.

Yeah, something seemed a little “off” about the writing style, in an unusual way. This is “real writing,” I take it?

vurudlxtyt• 4 years ago

Hard to read this with the level of snob-factor immediately present in the first couple paragraphs. Right away, it put me off on wanting to find common ground with the author to agree with or internalize their points.

It seems that half the purpose of this is to convince the reader that the author is a great writer, speaking from a position of authority, followed by rather generic advice they generously take time from their busy day to offer: write more so you, too, can get better at writing.

Or perhaps it was all tongue-in-cheek, and I just didn't pick it up.

mattmerc• 4 years ago

Yes, I can see how it may come across with a certain level of arrogance. Though I would say it's well intentioned based on the "mistakes" the author said he's made. It's been helpful to me for instance, to read about him getting over writing only "to document" and only when he "was told."

klez• 4 years ago

I agree. I couldn't understand what GP was talking about and I had to re-read the first three paragraphs to see what they meant when they said "snob-factor". On a second read I see where they may be coming from, but I still read it more as "I used to make mistakes, I now recognize those mistake and am a better writer because of it, here's the mistake I noticed, you can fix them too and become a better writer" than "I'm great. Wanna be as great as I am? Do as I do"

jhardy54• 4 years ago

It lost me at calling people “casual text producers”.

TameAntelope2• 4 years ago

Does this count as "Writing"? I write comments on HN, am I doing the "good" kind of writing?

* Nobody (and I mean nobody) is asking me to write comments,

* I'm not documenting anything (perhaps my opinion on something), and

* I am vastly under-qualified to write about the topics I "write" about.

Does tweeting count? Does commenting on Reddit/Facebook/LinkedIn/MySpace/etc. count?

If so, I think maybe it's time we give those platforms (and indeed this one) more respect; they're places that encourage people who wouldn't ever write for its own sake a way to express themselves through the written word.

abathur8• 4 years ago

It can and it can't, I think. A lot of the value of writing is ~exponential, when you have enough to say that you have to start weighing structure. What to say first and last; what to leave out. It's value created by wrestling with yourself about what you think, why, whether anyone else would care, and how to make them.

You can do this on social platforms. But you can also just poot out some brainfarts and scoot out of the room before anyone notices.

rollinDyno2• 4 years ago

This is an interesting line of questioning.

I value writing for similar reasons offered by the article, and I am very much invested in note taking methodology.

I never thought of commenting as a way of note-taking. However, it makes a lot of sense to use one’s comment history as a way of looking back. It’s actually very contextualized.

I was never someone to comment much, because I thought there was no value for other people in what I have to say. Alas, looking at it as a note-taking endeavor should definitely have insightful returns.

cwalv• 4 years ago

I was never someone to comment much, because I thought there was no value for other people in what I have to say.

I think this as well: if my thoughts are already well represented in other comments, or in popular/common thought in general, what's the point of repeating it? And if it's not popular/common, it's a lot of effort to articulate in a way that has a good chance of not being dismissed, and could even be inflammatory.

Juliate2• 4 years ago

It does, if only in the sense of "writing as thinking". Stating something out of oneself does help to consider it objectively, not only subjectively inside your mind, before it even gets confronted to others' understanding.

It all participates in refining the connections around the thing you're writing about, for you, and for others.

a1o• 4 years ago

I took away from these that we should write more when there's no intrinsic goal to the writing to see where it takes you the author. But writing with no goal is a goal in itself.

I think this is how you invoke the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.

soldeace• 4 years ago

What a pleasant piece by the way. I really enjoyed his style.

dcatx3• 4 years ago

Yes, it is important to write and I wish that many folks I've worked with in the past had been better writers (and readers). I am job searching right now after leaving a very, very meeting heavy culture and one of my top criteria is finding a company that values asynchronous discussion and written communication whenever possible.

I'm totally aligned with the author on the value of writing as a tool for thinking, learning, and exploring and I agree that there are blockers for some folks that make them less likely to stretch their writing muscles, especially in professional settings where the default is often "let's jump on a quick call".

Sadly, the article is poorly written. I don't expect professional-level editing on a personal blog, but I would hope for a higher standard when the piece is written by someone who is building and (presumably) charging money for a course on writing.

abathur8• 4 years ago

The most-deflating response to a thoughtfully-written email that lays out a clear set of strategic choices is the immediate TL;DR of the business world: can we schedule a quick call to make sure we're all on the same page about this? What's a good time for you?

121789• 4 years ago

I think you shouldn't be too deflated about this. For many decisions, a sync session is necessary (whether it's a group review or a team call). The biggest benefit of a good writing culture is to turn five open-ended time-consuming group calls into a couple of well-written emails, and a final decision call with a clear agenda.

dcatx3• 4 years ago

So tiring to get those responses. My old company was forced to go remote when the pandemic hit and the anxiety that the founder had about remote resulted in meetings about meetings to prepare everyone for the meetings.

Everyone has different learning styles, some conversations are definitely better in real-time and in-person but the default behavior being refusing to read an email longer than 3 sentences is rough.

muzani• 4 years ago

I believe this article is targeted at those who are not as comfortable with writing - those people who jump on a call for anything, and want to learn to use async communication more. It sounds like the author is starting to explore that territory. Whereas people like me used to hang around IRC while doing homework and write entire blog posts while half asleep in bed. We're not the ones who simply write while not told to. We have to tell ourselves to stop writing and listen/read more.

fl0012• 4 years ago

I agree

crgwbr• 4 years ago

If you're looking for a job at a company that highly values writing, please send me your resume! cweber [at] thelabnyc [dot] com.

We're a digital agency based in NYC, looking to hire a Sr. level engineer either on-site or remote within the US. Over the past few years we've really gotten serious about technical writing, especially around requirements gathering/documentation. We now strive to treat documentation as just as important as code—meaning a feature's requirements get written and code-reviewed via merge request _before_ implementation work begins.

So, if you're looking for a place that asynchronous discussion and written communication, you'd fit right in.

causality0• 4 years ago

This amateur attitude makes writing the most misunderstood activity.

What breathtaking arrogance. It falls into even sharper contrast in light of how this article is written with at best dry competence. Perhaps I'm too harsh, but coincidentally I today had the experience of being utterly sucked into some writing on a subject about which I cared nothing by the sheer talent of the writer after I stumbled across "Stranger in the Village" by James Baldwin.

RcouF1uZ4gsC• 4 years ago

I am actually in awe of writing!

Human speech itself is amazing, with no other animal having anything close to it.

And then we have writing, where we can encode this speech where people distant from you in time and space and read and understand it.

And here is the kicker: it is a pretty universal human ability now!

In the past, maybe 1% or fewer of a population could write. Now, we have almost universal literacy throughout the developed world, and a global literacy rate above 85%.

I find all this amazing.

GeorgeRichard• 4 years ago

propelling you to a flood of potentials

I've been looking for this for a long time, the exquisite, electric pleasure of bathing in a flood of potentials...

spoonjim• 4 years ago

LOL. I think a lot of people look at something like this and think "I could do this" because, very plainly, they know that they could. I don't think there are a lot of people who read A Confederacy of Dunces or The Cask of Amontillado or The Lottery or The Trial and feel like they could do it, because, very plainly, they realize that they cannot.

selfhifive• 4 years ago

Looks like a 'text producer' article. There's a lot of ideas mixed together into one long rant about writing. Even the headline itself isn't good. Surely, 'writing: a misunderstood activity' does the job better. But the article is not so much about style than it is about exploring ideas.

The author doesn't consider the other way people explore ideas: talking and engaging in discussions. The 'text producer' is this other kind of explorer of ideas. Yes it pays to organise your mind, but the exploration itself is important too.

blabberwocky• 4 years ago

Unfortunately, the writing here presents scant literary values to support its own message. This is itself an example of writing that could have better been conveyed as three bullet points on a powerpoint slide. It’s “three things not to do”, not any one compelling reason to write (e.g., because it’s a transcendental experience and illustrating why that is).

ConstantVigil• 4 years ago

I'm sure the author means well, but...

Every time I looked closely at their text I could peer into their minds, and inside lay a thought process oblivious to what writing really means.

This is the literal exact basis of what we all tend to see with folk online when it comes to projecting their own thoughts and assumptions onto the text of others...

Let’s change that. I used to misunderstand writing too, and my style suffered severely as a result. Now not only is it miles better, but I’m also a smarter human thanks to realizing the true meaning of writing. To get there, I had to spot the misconceptions I’ve been fed about writing. Reading this piece, I’m sure you’ll at least identify a couple you can build on to change your writing mindset.

Yeah... like not assuming you know everything going on in a persons head just because you read some words they wrote as a rough copy of their work...

Jeezus...

Anyways. He's right about people having that misconception about writing being easy... but I can't be bothered to read anything further due to the blowhard nature of his words he chose.

capybara_2020• 4 years ago

Is it just me or is there a sudden hype around writing?

There seems to be a whole bunch of popular courses and content around how you HAVE to write or you need to write to think.

Most of these articles seem to boil down to "writing gives you clarity of thought".

Why must it be only writing and not drawing or just going out and thinking?

rimliu• 4 years ago

Try to write down some stuff you are thinking and it will become clear. Just thinking gives the illusion of clarity, but when you try to put it down to words it all falls apart.

ilaksh• 4 years ago

I write all the time on HN. It seems to be mainly a pointless exercise though because the ideas that I think are important/new are generally ignored or hated.

philbo• 4 years ago

My tip on writing is to stop thinking about what you want to say and think instead about what you want your audience to perceive. That may sound obvious or meaningless, but there's a subtle difference and it helped my writing become more effective.

andrewgilmartin• 4 years ago

Writing is used for understanding and for communication. These are two different activities. Ie, the prototype is not the product. Highly recommend the book Thinking on Paper, https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Paper-V-Howard/dp/0688077587

fburnaby• 4 years ago

I find this pervasive idea that "documenting" things is just a thoughtless dump of facts very troublesome.

Certainly, most "documentation" I read is just a thoughtless dunp of arbitrary facts about some system, design, code, or event or what have you. But it should be better.

There are infinitely many true statements to make about some thing in order to document it. The art is in determining which ideas and facts about it are relevant for an audience, and finding a way to express those ideas and/or facts clearly for.that audience, in a logical order, using good prose, diagrams, etc. I think that's as hard as any other writing task, and arguably more valuable than many. Documentation captures facts for record and makes them accessible to some audience who otherwise would not have known about that thing. What could be a more important kind of knowledge work than that?

devdiary• 4 years ago

Writing is not easy, I see this article struggling after that great opening in the first para

bambax2• 4 years ago

Yes! Still looking for the point it's trying to make!

Writing: A misunderstood activity

Related Stories