Framework: Solving for Silicon Shortages

https://frame.work/blog/solving-for-silicon-shortages

by pimterry • 5 years ago

240 65 5 years ago

Felt like a legit update... Looking forward to putting these units up against the Surface line we currently deploy... I believe they have a good chance at crushing competition!

wffurr• 5 years ago

s/crushing competition/providing a great experience to their customers

JasonFruit• 5 years ago

That's how competition-crushing is done, ideally.

gcoguiec• 5 years ago

That's a great way to communicate around an engineering change order/notice!

xyx08262• 5 years ago

TL;DR: Framework is switching its audio codec from Realtek ALC295 to Tempo 92HD95B.

While I don’t own a Framework I welcome this change and find it quite interesting, partly because it seems like every laptop and PC maker these days are putting an ALC chip on their boards. You also don’t see computer companies announcing “we’re ditching chip X for chip Y” often and this is very informative transparency.

It feels like Realtek puts a lot of red tape around its chips. Most notably, it’s very hard to look up a datasheet for an ALC chip unless it’s a very popular part. Realtek also seem to only provide stock and support to their biggest customers like Dell and Gigabyte, because it sounds like Framework struggled to secure stock, probably from a one-off source, for their first batches and couldn’t get in touch with Realtek to implement the Smart DSP feature.

The Tempo chip on their other hand is much more open. The datasheet is right on the product page, and the chip has first-class Linux support. In the integrated sound card market where Realtek is to codec as Clorox is to bleach, I welcome attempts to diversify the market share.

jessikat• 5 years ago

I'm especially excited for this as Realtek codec support, at least from looking at the Linux driver, has a substantial quirks layer. The datasheet right there on the page makes it quite likely that if it doesn't work out of the box with the generic codec driver in Haiku, much more likely to get it working.

I do hope they don't switch back to the Realtek codec in the future.

xyx08262• 5 years ago

Given that the Tempo codec works great as a feature parity replacement (which the Framework team anticipates), it’s quite likely they will stick with it.

The Tempo do lack the ALC’s smart features but they couldn’t get the latter to work anyway...

nrp4• 5 years ago

If anyone is looking for a hardware startup idea, there are a ton of "essential" chips in laptops, desktops, and servers that there are effectively only one or two suppliers for. None of these are ones that need particularly advanced IP or process technology. After what every OEM and ODM has experienced in 2020 and 2021 (and going into 2022), we're all looking for a diversified set of chip partners. Even when back-end fabs constraints will be the same, better partners to work with would be wonderful.

dathinab4• 5 years ago

particularly advanced IP

Wrt. to letting them being designed and produced by TSCM and similar, yes.

But if you wan to do production "from scratch" it's a complete different matter, even if the chip is "simple" you still need a proper chip production method, which is never simple.

There is a reason why we only have very few fabs today, even through there is a lot of demand for chips using "older" production methods (>28nm). It's often still not profitable to produce them even for companies which have all the necessary patents, know-how and even some older existing machinery. A thing the care industry was hit hard by.

mrfusion• 5 years ago

Is framework open source?

Iolaum• 5 years ago

Key selling point is that is fully repairable with schematics and spare parts available.

It does support Linux as well.

If you are talking about whether it is open hardware I am not sure.

als0• 5 years ago

No. They make computers using ordinary PC parts. But they are very Linux friendly and repairable.

dathinab4• 5 years ago

No, but it's repairable and if you are a repair shop they do provide schematics for you allowing you to do "proper" repairs instead of just replacing large components.

Also the dimensions/interface around there interface modules is open so anyone can freely produce new ones.

nikau5• 5 years ago

I'm not sure what the hype is around framework laptops and reparability - having looked at a teardown video they are the same design as my Lenovo only each module is labelled with a QR code.

Lenovo already have full service manuals online which have explicit detail of replacement process and spare parts are cheap and readily available.

Yes Framework openly offer schematics, but my Lenovo has 3 year warranty, and once that is over its doubtful its economically viable to perform component level repair on the motherboard.

Drdrdrq• 5 years ago

So, when can we get these laptops in EU? Pretty please? :-)

bloopernova• 5 years ago

Only if you sell the fairphone in the USA :P

phaer• 5 years ago

Oh yes please! My x230 is aging...

emsy• 5 years ago

Seconded! A rough ETA would be appreciated since my MBP2013 is on it's last legs and I'm holding out for the Framework because I love the philosophy behind it.

monopoledance2• 5 years ago

Supposedly until the “end of the year”, but I would really like an update on that.

Would be quite pissed, if they’d sorry out mid December, as I am somewhat holding off for them.

For cultural differences, I can see a comparatively huge market in Europe. But I am sure the logistics are considerable. For what it’s worth: Framework, many people here would prefer the US keyboard layout for programming; there is a market for what you got already, no need to wait for QWERTZ, if hardware localization is an issue!

namibj• 5 years ago

Yeah, throw in a universal charger and if necessary, provide a source for EU plug mains leads. German distributors Reichelt and ELV would probably be happy to help you out there.

breakingcups2• 5 years ago

Yeah, I'm eagerly waiting

gfody• 5 years ago

they should make sound a module, then they could offer a high-end option with something like an akm ak4490 and users could go legacy free if they want

nrp4• 5 years ago

We considered it! Early in architecture, we had the CODEC on the headphone jack daughterboard instead of on the mainboard. It introduced a bunch of interface complexity, so we dropped that. In retrospect, it would have prepared us well for this silicon crunch though.

baybal23• 5 years ago

Tiger lake can use cellhpone codecs with soundwire interface.

reacharavindh2• 5 years ago

I don’t need my laptop right this moment. I am waiting with my wallet for a Ryzen 5000 series option here in Netherlands. Just saying here in case someone needs to know there are potential customers out here :-)

pkulak2• 5 years ago

I'm not concerned with the chip. Anything modern is plenty for my needs. I'm waiting for a 3k screen. That's what I spend all day staring at.

CameronNemo• 5 years ago

You won't catch me hunched over a laptop all day. I just need the screen for the few occasions where I am on the road or maybe in a meeting. Most of the time I will be docking my laptop. The ergonomics are just way better.

mfer2• 5 years ago

I wonder if they’ll do a Ryzen option anytime soon. Connecting displays and some of their modules (e.g. HDMI) appear to need thunderbolt. Ryzen doesn’t ship with that, yet.

dathinab4• 5 years ago

Are you sure it's thunderbolt and not USB-C/DP alternate mode?

Tbh. I tend to disable thunderbolt always due to security concerns which have more then once shown to be well founded.

reacharavindh2• 5 years ago

Didn’t intel release a Thunderbolt chipset for motherboard manufacturers to include? I thought some Ryzen motherboards had it to implement thunderbolt? Is it just not available in the low power-mobile category?

monopoledance2• 5 years ago

I heard somewhere, Intel is quite extensively helping small projects with hardware/board design. I assume that’s the reason they started with Intel (apart from AMD chip sourcing in the last 1 - 2 years), and if that’s the case, they may not have the actual capabilities to make an AMD/ARM board on their own yet - not a matter of wanting to. I doubt this a about a preference for Intel over AMD at all, otherwise. Especially with their target audience.

Considering how well their first machines are received, how outstanding their public image holds, I am sure they will not have troubles hiring passionate talent. Management, values, making an arguably thoughtful and desirable product, … seems like a dream job, when you work in that niche, no?

starky2• 5 years ago

I kinda wish I had a need to buy a laptop. I'd love to support what they are doing, and the specs and features are pretty much what I would be looking for if I was buying a laptop.

baybal23• 5 years ago

I feel The Framework team is learning the "electronics manufacturing 101" the hard way.

Having shipped at least 20 devices in my life now, I can say most of the time you manufacture what you can, and not what you want.

For me most projects start not as a piece of a napkin genius startup idea, but a walk around electronics markets, distributors, thinking what is a good deal now, and if getting all parts together in given time is real, and feasible for one project, or another.

fake-name• 5 years ago

So much this.

It's always some mixture between amusing and depressing seeing software people try hardware.

nikau5• 5 years ago

Engineering for manufacturing is a different skillset from even EE, for example a pick and place machine can only run so many reels of components, so sometimes its more economical to use multiple resistors instead of one as you can then get the board made on the smaller and cheaper machine.

breakingcups2• 5 years ago

Is the Framework team originally a software team?

nrp4• 5 years ago

Luckily we all went through 101, 201, and some grad courses in building and scaling hardware the hard way in our previous companies. If not for that, we probably wouldn't have been able to ship anything in 2021.

baybal23• 5 years ago

Nirav, where do you do the final assembly these days? Still at Quanta in Taiwan?

Want to try doing assembly somewhere else?

starky2• 5 years ago

Why do you think they are learning the hard way? Everyone is having the exact same sourcing issues right now. The EE team I work with is spending at least half their resources right now on resolving part shortages. I would be surprised if there was any hardware team out there right now that isn't scrambling to see how they can keep shipping product.

throwawaysea2• 5 years ago

Tempo picked up their CODEC and IP catalog including the 92HD95B from IDT, which in turn acquired it from SigmaTel, one of the great old audio silicon design companies. The CODEC happens to have the exact set of capabilities needed for the Framework Laptop and is fully supported in both Windows and Linux.

Does having a "CODEC" that is supported by Linux mean that the entire audio chip that is being substituted is supported by Linux? I'm not sure if I am asking the right question, but I'm trying to avoid ordering a Framework laptop that has one of these new chips and somehow doesn't work out of the box with Ubuntu as expected.

nrp4• 5 years ago

Yep, it should work the same in Ubuntu as it does in Windows. this is actually different than the Realtek CODEC, which did have some functionality that the Windows driver enabled that the Linux one didn't (like mic beamforming, though the beamforming didn't work very well anyway).

throwawaysea2• 5 years ago

Awesome. Thanks for the fast response! I love your work and am looking forward to what else you can disrupt in the future from an open computing and repairability perspective (smartphones please!).

cloudengineer94• 5 years ago

Framework is such an interesting project. Especially from the perspective of a Linux user, there is tons of potential here and I cannot wait to see their next generation laptops.

Framework: Solving for Silicon Shortages

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