Met Police: Run away, call 999 if you feel danger when stopped by lone officer

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/sarah-everard-wayne-couzens-undercover-police-warrant/

by jakelazaroff • 5 years ago

46 80 5 years ago

lbc.co.uk

jackyinger• 5 years ago

Woah, in the US that’d likely you get killed regardless of skin color.

Any UK folks around to comment on whether this advice is actually usable there?

tonylemesmer3• 5 years ago

It would probably be fine as long as you do it calmly and don’t make any crazy sudden moves. The current climate would make it even easier. But I’m not a habitual law breaker so not really into running away from cops. By ‘running away’ I take that to mean move yourself calmly to a more public / busier area rather than obviously trying to disappear into the night.

Edit [I’m from the UK and offering a UK perspective. I have been accosted calmly by UK police and I have UK friends who are officers.]

BoorishBears• 5 years ago

A pregnant woman had her car flipped with a (horribly performed) PIT maneuver after she tried to make it to an exit before pulling over.

woodruffw• 5 years ago

“Running away” is itself the rough opposite of “do[ing] it calmly and [not making] any crazy sudden moves,” at least in the eyes of the police.

The idea that you can “calmly” run away from a rogue cop isn’t compatible with their expectations.

lovich2• 5 years ago

If you’re in the US at least then you are pretty much guaranteed to be a daily, habitual law breaker.

You just don’t habitually get the law enforced on you

tonylemesmer3• 5 years ago

People disagreeing with my comment should realise I’m not saying that anything you could do would save you from the fate that Sarah Everard suffered. A determined rogue cop can still kill you. Anyone can kill you. The Met’s advice isn’t helpful. But moving to a busier area as briskly and unprovocatively as possible could save you.

tokai• 5 years ago

Even that can be deadly. One screw up in a game of Simon Says with an unhinged cop and you're dead.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver

r3trohack3r• 5 years ago

At least in my home town (central Illinois), our drivers education instructor actually taught this. If you’re being pulled over in podunk nowhere, turn on your hazards, reduce your speed, and proceed to the next well populated area (I.e. gas station).

droidist2• 5 years ago

I always was told this too but I've never had the courage to actually do it. I'd be afraid the cop would be angry and treat me more harshly when I finally do pull over. There was recently a case of a pregnant woman doing this and the police performed a PIT maneuver and flipped her car.

https://www.news10.com/news/national/pregnant-woman-sues-ark...

jazzyjackson2• 5 years ago

I think there’s a specific condition where this advice applies, FTA:

"It would be extremely unusual for an officer in plain clothes to be working alone. If they are, they should be calling for assistance with other officers arriving very soon. This is standard practice.”

So, don’t run away from uniformed officers, don’t run away from multiple officers.

To your point, I’m reminded of Nicole Harper, whose vehicle was flipped by an officer’s pit maneuver as she continued down the road lookong for a safe place to pull off the highway, hazards flashing, just as the police department’s own “drivers license study guide” advises.

https://jalopnik.com/cop-flips-pregnant-womans-while-she-tri...

willyt• 5 years ago

For a well dressed white person it would be sensible advice but I’m not so sure how well it would pan out for a black guy at 3am in Tottenham or even a white kid in a shell suit in Castlemilk for that matter. You almost certainly wouldn’t be killed, but you probably would get chased and tackled to the ground and it would be up to the interpretation of the police officer, prosecutor and ultimately judge or jury as to wether it was a reasonable thing for you to do or if you were just trying to use the Everard case as an excuse.

hnlmorg• 5 years ago

I've found police in the UK are generally harder to provoke than in the US. However it only takes one bad cop having a bad day for things to go sideways fast.

At risk of sparking a controversy, I do think the UKs tighter gun control laws help. It means fewer people are carrying guns and thus fewer officers need to be armed. Sure, there's still the other deterrents -- which can be nasty too. But guns can causes a situation to escalate so much faster so mostly removing that from the equation must help matters.

akudha2• 5 years ago

I wonder if this will work in the U.S. I remember reading a story on Reddit - this woman drove half mile more (night time) before stopping for a cop, because she wanted to stop in a well lit area. He arrested her for this, even though she had done nothing else wrong.

SamoyedFurFluff• 5 years ago

There was a case a bit ago where a cop flipped a pregnant woman’s car, even though she had turned her lights flashing and wasn’t speeding up (indicating she likely wanted to find a safe place to stop, since it was on the highway).

akudha2• 5 years ago

Fuck :( Do you know what happened to her? I’m guessing nothing happened to the cop?

grayhatter3• 5 years ago

Dont forget the part where there was no shoulder, and barriers prevent pulling off of the highway.

danenania10• 5 years ago

Many (most?) traffic stops are pointless and create unnecessary risk on both sides of the encounter. If it's just moderate speeding, a tail light is out, rolling through a stop sign, or another low-level infraction, send a fine in the mail--with perhaps a little blast of the sirens to inform the driver. Stops should be reserved for grossly reckless driving or clear signs of intoxication.

0x7373689• 5 years ago

Stopping gives the police officer a chance to find something else

happytoexplain• 5 years ago

American police officers have a terrifying habit of disproportionately escalating when a subject "flees". Especially in the case of just trying to find a safe place to pull over - I know multiple people, men and women, who were terrorized for daring to do that.

no_butterscotch• 5 years ago

Not to be insensitive, but this advice/policy and the press around the rape-murder of the woman seem out of line.

How many officers are doing this in the UK? It seems like it's gotten a lot of press because of how unusual it is.

A lot more people die from everyday thugs, relatives/lovers, etc. Is making people terrified of the police good in the long run?

helge9210• 5 years ago

How many officers are doing this in the UK?

All of them? It's UK -- guilty until proven innocent.

grayhatter3• 5 years ago

I'm not sure it's unreasonable for a police agency to provide guidance for people who could be afraid of the police. People who fear police have worse outcomes than thoes that dont. They have a vested interest in creating positive outcomes. Reminding people it's reasonable to run from someone in plainclothes claiming they have authority when they're making you afraid is a good idea.

adriancr• 5 years ago

It applies to plainclothes policemen...

Basically a random person stopping/coming up to you and saying they're police asking for id and to search you / whatever...

I've personally had an encounter like this long time ago where I just ran away, was stopped by uniformed officers a small distance away, explained I was scared and just got a thorough search / left alone.

You would be wise to be afraid in situations like this, especially in dark areas. If someone asks for ID or time, light, etc, it's likely a pretense to get close enough to mug you. (see if phone is worth it, or in the past if there's money in wallet)

NelsonMinar• 5 years ago

Then one of the eyewitnesses identified a policeman as one of the suspects. The next night, the chief of police was on the panel. He said, "Now, girls, whatever happens, do not stop for a police officer. Stay in your car. If a police officer tries to stop you, do not stop. Keep driving and under no circumstances should you get out of your car." For a few weeks, half the traffic in L.A. was doing twice the speed limit.

-- Laurie Anderson, "New Jersey Turnpike"

WastingMyTime893• 5 years ago

I think the article is missing some essential pieces of information.

After a high profile case of a MET officer kidnapping and murdering a woman through the use of his status, the MET has decided that all plain clothes officers will work in tandem. So you should never be stopped by a lone plain clothes officer.

baybal2• 5 years ago

There should be no plainclothes officers in duty.

An officer uniform should be easy to identify exactly to prevent confusion in cases like somebody being arrested in the middle of the street.

WastingMyTime893• 5 years ago

There are legitimate cases for officers to be working plain-clothed — crowd monitoring and investigators needing to keep a low profile for example.

rich_sasha• 5 years ago

Detectives and other “senior” police officers in UK generally work in plain clothes. They aren’t generally on the beat shaking people down, but are otherwise regular police officers, can and will arrest you if need be. But then this is UK, citizen arrests are rare but also 100% legal in appropriate circumstances so it’s not a biggie here.

The law says, IIRC that plainclothes officers must show their ID, without even being asked for it, when approaching people.

So it’s not like they are secret spooks.

MozMorris• 5 years ago

Further context for those who may not be aware: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/30/sarah-everar...

rsj_hn2• 5 years ago

Yes, that the hn headline does not have 'officer' in quotes (as the linked headline does) is quite misleading and a violation of hn guidelines. Is there a way to page @dang :)

oh_sigh• 5 years ago

But a Met police officer is still a Met police officer, even if they aren't acting in any kind of official capacity. This isn't a situation where someone impersonated an officer and killed the lady - a real police officer did it.

tinus_hn• 5 years ago

Click the ‘flag’ link or if you think it’s really important, send the moderators an email through the link in the faq.

jakelazaroff• 5 years ago

Sorry, wasn't trying to mislead. The full headline was 6 characters too long; I did my best to keep the intent of the original.

thom• 5 years ago

One could spend a lot of time plumbing the depths of such a contemptible statement. But all I'll say is this: if your organisation is ever even tangentially party to some act of evil, don't do this. Do the other thing.

eynsham• 5 years ago

We should put such suggestions (and indeed so should any other jurisdiction) on a statutory footing if we are serious about them. This means, minimally—

1. use of bodycams

2. to record the furnishing of identity

3. when requested

should be required before any power exercisable only by police may be used (self defence, arrests of persons in flagrante murdering people and so on are I think not really limited to police), and no offence of obstruction &c. should be committed if the requirement above is not met.

concordDance• 5 years ago

Body cams don't feel practical for undercover police. Too easily seen if they have a good view.

type_Ben_struct• 5 years ago

The whole chain of events that led to this advice is so sad. Rest in peace Sarah.

My view is that undercover police should have a surveillance only role. Arresting or even approaching members of the public should be reserved for uniformed officers.

wackro• 5 years ago

I think the state of the police force at the moment is very much all hands on deck. Would be very expensive to have a large part of the force unable to act.

danenania10• 5 years ago

Some sort of smartphone app to scan and verify badges via a PKI might be the best solution. There isn't much to stop someone with bad intentions from impersonating an officer, uniformed or not. Every non-emergency police encounter should begin with validation.

orwin• 5 years ago

Arresting yes, but approaching and stopping IF necessary (and that mean justifying it in the report) the public should be OK.

In the first world countries, we need classes to learn how to deal with state force/judicial power. I usually read a lot about "teach economics to poor famillies", but we would be better served if we understood the law and our right before 30.

strange_things• 5 years ago

The UK is a joke. You are not allowed to even defend yourself with more than your keys.

HeyZuess• 5 years ago

I guess the joke is on them, having one of the lowest homicide rates by firearm in the world, even knife homicides which London is famous for are lower than many major US cities.

Ajay-p• 5 years ago

Yes, run, make it even easier for them to wrestle you to the ground and take you away.

Met Police: Run away, call 999 if you feel danger when stopped by lone officer

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