File picker meme

https://wiki.installgentoo.com/wiki/File_Picker_meme

by Cloudef • 5 years ago

108 125 5 years ago

wiki.installgentoo.com

cunidev• 5 years ago

This "meme" is the core of most useless, destroying DE wars in the Linux community. An example of how such a limited case can fuel beliefs of one desktop being "better" than the other, and the latter being something to continuously joke on.

The lack of collaboration between desktops is, in my opinion, at the core of the fragmentation that makes Linux desktops still appear so far from their proprietary counterparts.

This is not to say that either desktop is perfect in vision or implementation, of course, but the "GNOME vs KDE flame wars" are just childish talk. Mature criticism and, especially, collaboration is what both desktops need.

KozmoNau7• 5 years ago

I agree that collaboration is always desirable, and that common standards are beneficial to everyone.

But the GTK filepicker is simply an embarrassment, there's no other word for it. For all of the effort that has been spent on everything else Gnome-related, adding thumbnails to the filepicker would have been an extremely easy win.

The current implentation is at Win 3.x levels of design and experience.

Cloudef8• 5 years ago

I've always wondered why file picker has to be so tightly integrated into GUI toolkit. Separate program outputting the selected path(s) sounds like much nicer design, and makes it easier to implement alternative file pickers.

marcodiego• 5 years ago

Although they disagree in many aspects, kde and gnome community have, AFAICS, had a healthy relationship for many years now. They collaborate with each other, implement common standards and even held events together. The adoption and popularization of ICCCWM, xdg-tools, PackageKit and even the support to wayland, pipewire and flatpaks are result of that.

Flame wars about what DE is best reminds of the days when people thought you were a 'hacker' just because you used linux. Or better, when people used linux just because they thought people would think they were hackers.

forgotpwd163• 5 years ago

This meme isn't a limited case and it's representative of the mindset that GNOME has. Extremely focused in one "vision" disregarding the opinions and issues of users.

Gualdrapo• 5 years ago

Alas it does not happen only on GNOME.

For example, mentioning how irrational is that to this day GIMP has no dedicated tool to draw basic geometric shapes (rectangles, ovals) as every other image editor does, even the most basic ones, can get you a lecture about how GIMP is free software, its lack of funding, that (allegedly) those tools are irrelevant and go against their philosophy, downvotes, bans...

Cloudef8• 5 years ago

Sometimes collaboration goes nowhere: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217

forgotpwd163• 5 years ago

Enough spam for today. Locking the issue.

Locked as expected. But really? Well-written written arguments from users and developers is considered spam?

jchw7• 5 years ago

Option A: applications can continue to do what they’ve done for nearly 30 years and rely on system title bars. This will work everywhere — X11 GNOME, KDE, SwayWM, macOS, Windows, BeOS,… except GNOME on Wayland, and it will feel native.

Option B: applications can choose between GTK 3/4 (not exactly a fan favorite) and get native looking title bars only on GNOME (without extra work — also only supports an out-of-date spec for native window frames on Wayland) or they can use libdecoration (or libdecor or whatever) which appears to be persistently not ready for prime time, and will still not look native in most Wayland compositors.

Honest to goodness, apps should just force themselves into X11 mode on GNOME until the compositor is fixed. The CSD initiative is a broken idea.

simion314• 5 years ago

File picking is a very important thing, I am sorry if is hard to implement but some pathetic workaround or some simplicity excuse is not working with many users.

whywhywhywhy• 5 years ago

An example of how such a limited case can fuel beliefs of one desktop being "better" than the other

Disagree completely, if they don't care to add such a relatively basic feature that every other environment has and don't care if their users have a 90s level experience opening documents which users do multiple times a day then why would you expect any of the rest of the system to have any care and attention paid to it?

BrightGlow28• 5 years ago

Welcome to Linux on the desktop, where every project has no money and no developers and is decades behind Windows and Mac. It's been like this the entire time I've been using Linux. But somehow, some people still manage to use it and get work done.

zanc• 5 years ago

Linux desktops

Linux is a kernel.

dsr_2• 5 years ago

... and desktops running operating systems with a Linux kernel are called Linux desktops when it doesn't matter much which distribution is being discussed.

eloeffler• 5 years ago

Back then at least there was some sense in trying to mimick Windows as closely as possible in a graphical environment to gain acceptance among Windows users who'd claim they can't get used to a new interface.

Starting with Windows 8 at the latest that argument was kind of silly :)

29athrowaway2• 5 years ago

At least we don't have to see ads.

swiley• 5 years ago

I’ll take good faith bugs and missing features over the pathological psycho warfare in closed software any day of the week.

andrepd• 5 years ago

I think that the point here is that this is anything but a "good faith bug".

29athrowaway2• 5 years ago

There is cool program for people like you, it is called Bonzibuddy. Proprietary software is guaranteed to be ethical and respectful of your privacy. In part, because the opaqueness creates an incentive for people to write better, more secure software.

I would also much rather consume software made by people that spend 99% of their time waiting for the weekend, than from people that write software out of self-motivation and enjoyment.

dublin2• 5 years ago

I have never seen an ad in Windows, period. (And for that matter, I've never changed any setting to achieve that. Perhaps this is because as a Surface user, I get Win10 Pro installed by default?)

By the way, try using a pen or touch as a meaningfully usable interface on Linux (or Mac)... I'll never buy another computer that doesn't support both rich pen and touch - THAT'S a UI improvement that has changed my life, and made me swear off ALL keyboard-and-mouse-only desktops and laptops forever. (I still use KB/mouse when docked or using type cover, of course, but why would I ever want to limit myself to those?)

BTW - I'll probably also never own another computer that's not dockable - the ability to pull the computer out and have your entire working state just go with you in less than a second is incredibly valuable, as is the ability to dock again when you arrive at one of your desks. My only real complaint about the Surface is that battery replacement is really only practical as a device swap - and Li batteries don't last long enough to use the PC until its technically obsolete. (I'll upgrade to the new SP8, but I'm still running an SP4, which is my third due to two previous battery bloatings since 2014.)

Cloudef8• 5 years ago

Steam Deck is for you perhaps

xfer• 5 years ago

try using a pen or touch as a meaningfully usable interface

Have you tried doing that on windows? No a pen is not supposed to be used for scrolling on a pc, it's not a smartphone: https://github.com/TheJoeFin/Windows10-Community/issues/17

I have seen windows ads on pro/enterprise on the lock screen even.

jeroenhd3• 5 years ago

I see ads on Windows constantly, usually for Microsoft Edge and Bing, but every install always comes with a link to Candy Crush as far as I've seen.

Maybe Microsoft dialed back the ads on the Surface, but on other platforms Windows is full of dark patterns to advertise Microsoft's own software. Just recently I've had to give admin permission to my computer to dismiss a warning from Windows Defender that I'm not signed into OneDrive.

I can't say I see the same value in the strong points of the Surface you see, but I have to admit that it's a shame how little good competition there is to the Surface line in terms of convertibles. Apple could easily outcompete Microsoft by providing a professional version of the iPad Pro that runs normal applications, but their desire for simplifying and locking down general purpose computers seems to prevent them from doing so. Other manufacturers like Dell and Lenovo simply don't seem to put out the same quality of hardware.

amiga-workbench• 5 years ago

Even Serenity OS has a feature complete file picker. Embarrassing.

Kiro• 5 years ago

This is by far the biggest obstacle to mass adoption.

JasonFruit2• 5 years ago

Poe's law strikes again: are you saying, sarcastically, "Yeah of course Gnome's filepicker is the biggest problem Linux has," or are you saying, seriously, "Yes, this attitude of 'We won't fix it because principle!' is the biggest problem the Linux community has"?

space_ghost• 5 years ago

Honestly, it could be either one, and that's what makes this meme so interesting/fantastic/depressing.

dublin2• 5 years ago

Gnome's UI really does suck.

Windows File Explorer sucks, too, just not nearly as bad. (Though I'd put it FAR ahead of the Mac's counter-intuitive and ill-named Finder.)

It's the 21st century - WHY, OH, WHY do we still have file managers that provide NO CLUE as to the size and number of files in a directory? Why are all presentations still list or grid-based? Why does it take so long to find files? Can't we save the hashes from the last search and update them periodically when the machine is idle?

I'll venture a guess: Because "real programmers" don't use GUIs for file manipulation, so they JUST DON'T CARE about making the most important UI next to the browser any better.

ghostly_s• 5 years ago

No idea why this is downvoted, its spot on.

jeroenhd3• 5 years ago

I don't see the problem, to be honest. I never really care about how many files are in a directory or how big that directory is when I'm in the "open file" dialog. I just want to find my file quickly.

I have no idea how to efficiently operate Apple's design, but I've never had a problem with the Windows file picker. Same with Gnome, to be honest, except when I'm trying to pick an image file. Out of all the UI options, I don't think the grid or list views are the biggest problem here.

I don't know what kind of view you expect, but even on phones you'll get grids and lists when picking a file. Every application on the desktop as far as I know has a mechanism to remember the last folder opened, but searches are rarely repeated. I think that makes sense because searches are usually for one specific file, and the probability that you want to open the exact same file multiple times in a row is relatively low compared to the probability that you want to open a file from the same folder. Windows Collections and the search folder mechanism do allow you to use such a method of file picking, though, because the virtual folders that every application already supports can be reused and customised to your hearts desire.

As for why it's still a flat overview of files and folders, it's probably performance related. On my machine, I can find pretty much any file by hitting the super key and typing. Gnome Tracker and Windows Search index all the files in my home directory and searching is pretty much instant. On hard drives the searching is slower, but at the same time the indexing barely ever runs because the hard drive is always busy (or the indexer is slowing down the whole system, like on Windows Vista).

Automated collections of images and video files work great in a sandboxes environment but Android's buggy file picker shows what happens with that paradigm in an arbitrary file structure, often missing pictures or listing deleted ones on my device because an app used the wrong API or a database sync is still running in the background. My device isn't even a particularly cheap one, I can't imagine how often people with $100 phones run it to this mess.

weberer3• 5 years ago

Related discussion from earlier this year

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25719796

h2odragon• 5 years ago

What's really important is that the elements of the dialog box all move around every few fears, so no one can get too familiar with it and expect to understand what they see at a glance.

The presence of text box in which any text entered does something totally unexpected is at least universal.

JasonFruit2• 5 years ago

Absolutely agree about the bizarre textbox that pops up if I accidentally press a key while the filename box isn't selected... what on Earth is it supposed to be doing? Does anyone want that feature, someone who thinks, "Yes, when I hit a key in a Save dialog, I'd like to have a strangely filtered list of the files that are there already!?"

arghwhat• 5 years ago

To be fair I use the feature a lot when picking a batch of files for editing. It just makes no sense for saving - it's a bad UX reuse attempt.

jdub4• 5 years ago

You may have heard the rumour that GTK/GNOME developers make software for simpleton users that don't exist. But you've just run into a power user feature that you don't understand.

Now, what do you think will happen if the GTK/GNOME developers get rid of that "bizarre textbox" so it doesn't get in your way? Yes, they'll get a torrent of abuse for "removing the last power user feature" or something. :-)

smoldesu4• 5 years ago

I hopped off the GNOME train a few months ago, v40 was just too much, too fast, and will likely leave the ecosystem pretty broken for the considerable future.

However, I still really like GTK (even prefer it over QT, in many ways) and have full faith that the Linux desktop will push through. What concerns me is the hypocrisy of the modern GNOME team and how little they listen to the actual community using their DE. They claim to want "less settings and more features" yet remove features with every update, only to be forced into adding feature flags/settings options to add/remove it at the user's discretion. They claim that we're finally going to kill sacred cows, but the File Picker Meme still exists. They claim to respect your freedom, but force you to use Flatpaks and obfuscate their own code to prevent you from getting consistent app theming. It really disappoints me to see a DE fall from grace like this, but I probably shouldn't have been so dependent on a single project in the first place. Here's hoping they can iron out all of the (many, many) issues before the next major release.

BrightGlow28• 5 years ago

What concerns me is the hypocrisy of the modern GNOME team and how little they listen to the actual community using their DE.

Please remember: GNOME is a loosely connected group of volunteers all working on what they want to work on. If one person says they're prioritizing something and another person says they're going to do something else, that's not hypocrisy, that's just a difference of opinion. I know it may be confusing when one person says one thing and another person says something different but this is something you have to get used to in open source, it's not like a company where the CEO tells everyone what to do. Some developers may choose to listen to certain community members and may choose to ignore other community members, sadly that has to happen in any project where the wider community outnumbers the developers. Every interested person can't get their way all the time because resources are limited.

They claim to respect your freedom, but force you to use Flatpaks and obfuscate their own code to prevent you from getting consistent app theming

This statement doesn't make sense to me. Flathub lists the license of the program and most packages are open source. And I have no idea what you mean by "obfuscate their own code" or "consistent app theming", could you elaborate? The suggested way to get consistent app theming is to stick with the Adwaita theme, if you're installing custom themes then that's guaranteed to be inconsistent.

Here's hoping they can iron out all of the (many, many) issues before the next major release.

If there are issues that you want to see fixed, the best way to help that would be to contribute.

TLLtchvL8KZ2• 5 years ago

Many in charge seem to employed by Red Hat. Really makes you go "Hmmm...".

superkuh• 5 years ago

The lack of a thumbnail is hardly the most glaring flaw in gtkfilechooserwidget.c in Gtk3. Since 2013 (before this it was fine) the file chooser File->Open dialog no longer allows you to type in it or paste file paths into without first hitting a series of hot keys. It will literally throw an error if you paste a file path into the file chooser. This means every application that uses Gtk3 is broken on linux.

I've talked to the devs responsible for this over on their GNOME IRC channel and they say everyone should port their applications to Gtk4 and Gtk3 is frozen and will never be fixed. I've attempted to fix it myself in source, compile, and manually swap in the new gtk3 libs but so far I can only get the filename entry text box to appear by default on the first "File->Open" operation but none after the first.

It is one of the major reasons I run older versions of software. Newer software is broken unless it is bleeding edge and then nothing actually uses it.

delta1• 5 years ago

NSFW

skinkestek6• 5 years ago

Try this: https://archive.ph/Gq2hv

waitwhatwhoa• 5 years ago

https://wiki.installgentoo.com/index.php?title=File_Picker_m... Will get you the content without the NSFW go away message.

jchw7• 5 years ago

I know it’s utterly distasteful, but I am fairly amused at the youthful rebellion of defacing a web page in this fashion. Feels very old Internet.

skinkestek6• 5 years ago

That has been hijacked too, this should work: https://archive.ph/Gq2hv

znpy• 5 years ago

The page seems to have been vandalized, and it's currently showing an NSFW image.

EDIT: here's the old, non-vandalized version: https://wiki.installgentoo.com/index.php?title=File_Picker_m...

skinkestek6• 5 years ago

That has been hijacked too, this should work: https://archive.ph/Gq2hv

rozab• 5 years ago

@dang might want to remove this based on page edit. Submitting a link to a 4chan wiki was probably a silly idea :)

jeroenhd3• 5 years ago

Or link to the version of the page before the edits: https://wiki.installgentoo.com/index.php?title=File_Picker_m...

skinkestek6• 5 years ago

That has been hijacked too, this should work: https://archive.ph/Gq2hv

Cloudef8• 5 years ago

https://archive.ph/Gq2hv maybe replace the link with this

jdub4• 5 years ago

This issue is almost never raised in good faith. Just look at this document. Disingenuous, trolling, contemptuous of the work of FLOSS developers. Then look at the comments in this thread, repeating and escalating the same nastiness.

Crap like this contributes to burnout, people leaving the community, etc. Why spend your time on a volunteer effort if you're just going to be abused by non-contributors?

There's a reason behind the problem should anyone care to find out...

Most people reading this thread should have at least some sympathy (empathy, even) for architectural and social challenges in large, long-running software projects.

GNOME is a 22 year old project, and for much of that time its underlying toolkit, GTK (formerly GTK+), was intentionally maintained very separately. The consequence is that, broadly speaking, GTK could not depend on GNOME features.

So, shoving GNOME's Nautilus-powered file management in a GTK file chooser? That's tricky. Other GTK users would not appreciate GTK depending on, well, almost all of GNOME.

A point of integration was required, to allow the outside environment to provide the file chooser user interface. Turns out that's also tricky, especially when your toolkit is providing API/ABI guarantees. Consider that GTK 2.x maintained API/ABI compatibility for almost half the entire lifetime of the GTK project.

But no one gave up. More recently, the XDG portals work provides an opportunity to solve this (and quite a few other problems) cleanly and, more importantly, securely. This will also allow a KDE environment to provide the file chooser interface for a GTK application. Nice! Why isn't it already supported everywhere? Because there are a lot of people and projects involved.

It's entirely legitimate to ask, in good faith, why this wasn't done 10, even 20 years ago.

Consider that building a complete FLOSS desktop system is an immense amount of work, and that's what GNOME (even before 2.0) was focused on. Not just "a user interface for Linux", but making the entire stack work for real people. So many improvements in Linux desktop systems came from GNOME developers deciding that the status quo wasn't good enough. We wanted to fix the kernel, device discovery and enablement, dynamic wired and wireless network configuration, rich input devices, accessibility, etc., etc.

Remember, 20 years ago just getting X to work with your bloody monitor to work was enough of a pain.

Then, consider the priorities of the people contributing to the GNOME and GTK projects. Was it more important to break toolkit API/ABI compatibility to let GNOME replace the file chooser, or maintain that compatibility and work on other, arguably more fundamental problems?

Oh, and you know what happens when GTK/GNOME chose to break API/ABI compatibility for 3.x and 4.x? Everyone complained that FLOSS desktop developers can't maintain compatibility and that's the thing holding back "Linux on the desktop".

Anyway, if you're not already turned off by all the abuse that FLOSS desktop developers cop for literally everything they do, from people who don't know any better and people who should know better, I can still recommend it as deeply satisfying work. :-)

weberer3• 5 years ago

Then, consider the priorities of the people contributing to the GNOME and GTK projects

To be fair, this has been the #1 most requested issue in GNOME for quite a few years. Though now it seems to be second behind a blurry text issue.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues?sort=popularity

This issue is almost never raised in good faith.

I have no idea what you mean by that. This is a big issue that affects a large portion of users. Nobody is just pretending they need to see thumbnails for some nefarious purpose.

jdub4• 5 years ago

Votes in a bug tracker don't represent the priorities of developers or even a representative audience of users. Yes, it's a known issue, but there are trade-offs and a lot of work involved. Most people just aren't aware of the complexity involved in file chooser implementations and APIs.

The file chooser issue is more often raised in the context of internet abuse than good faith user requests. That doesn't mean it's not real, it just means it's fodder for precisely the kind of document we're responding to.

File picker meme

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