Richard Stallman and the History of Free Software and Open Source (2016)

https://www.cmpod.net/all-transcripts/history-open-source-free-software-text/

by sanmak • 5 years ago

149 98 5 years ago

mastazi4• 5 years ago

His behavioral problems made him switch schools every now and then, and that left him, socially, as a bit of an outsider among children his age. He even admits that he never learned how to get along properly with other people. Computers, though, were a completely different story.

This is almost a trope, socially awkward person becomes good at computers. When I was at Uni studying computer science, a good percentage of the students matched that profile.

I wonder if this is less common today though, given that a career in a computer-related field is considered a "good career" and many more people try it. Do the "popular" kids like computers? (I'm 40-something and I wonder if that's the case with today's teenagers or 20-something generation).

ragona• 5 years ago

As someone who has interviewed and hired a lot of recent CS grads I can confirm they are way less weird than the fine people I met at the beginning of my career.

version_five• 5 years ago

I don't have the data but given the salaries I assume FAANG software eng is now the target of people that used to go for ibanking/MBB consulting, basically high achievers motivated by achievement in the eyes of others. If that's true, it's going to be a massive demographic shift from the CS folks I went to school with in the late 90s. Based on some of the discussions I see, I think this has already happened in places.

908B64B1975• 5 years ago

I don't think that kind of person would last long as a dev, or get promoted very much.

marcodiego• 5 years ago

I've this feeling too. The people on CS today is way more "normal" than even in the 90's. But there's a shift in salaries: the biggest bite now goes for managers and developers are mostly seen as replaceable lower value workers. True nerds don't feel at home in the marketplace anymore.

vineyardmike2• 5 years ago

As a recent graduate of a high-ranked uni, this is somewhat true, but i think CS pulls some from IBanking but also from law, general engr'ing, and medicine. I and many others i know entered school thinking about medicine.

While many people in CS that go to FAANG, et. al are high-achievers, most are the cohort of those people interested in science and technical work more than social focused work. Much bigger overlap with pre-med defectors. Also we had plenty of "anti-social" kids, but interestingly they achieved less and were more likely to work at a small regional company after graduating than a SV tech firm.

neilv• 5 years ago

Before software development was the career the rich kids went to, instead of, say, Wall Street, I don't recall us computer nerds being called "high achievers".

I think it helps to think of "high achiever" as PR spin for the go-to status/prestige careers for children from affluent and connected families. Whatever that is at the time.

If we wanted to call someone in software a "high achiever", I suppose it could be used to describe someone who breaks the class barrier, to get the affluent go-to status career. Despite whatever affluence-biased gatekeeping the affluent established once they took it over.

Knighttime• 5 years ago

Hmm.

I'm 17, so here is what I have to say on that. Keep in mind I live in a rural, farm town so it might be a bit different in more urban areas. I don't know. I'm just basing what I'm saying on what I hear online, and my own observations.

Computer related fields are DEFINITELY looked on as a "good career" and "the future", but I see a lot of my peers, even if they are vaguely interested, believe that they "aren't techy enough" to have a computer related job in the future. Which I always find strange, because you don't have to be "nerdy" or anything. You just... learn? Like any other job that requires some kind of skill. You don't have to be "plumber-y" enough to get a job as a plumber, and similarly you don't have to be "techy" to get a job in tech. Anyway...

Most people my age that I'm around don't know the difference between Google and the Internet, and it still tends to be the socially awkward, nerdy people who get into computers. So, to answer your question, maybe social awkwardness or being nerdy is less of a "requirement" now than before because being a "geeky computer user" isn't really a stigmatized thing anymore since everyone interacts with computers in some fashion nowadays and my generation as a whole seems a bit more open minded with a lot of things compared to previous ones, but it's still definitely a stereotype that's sticking around and probably will stay around for a while.

MonaroVXR• 5 years ago

I'm going to counter this. I feel it's still stigmatized as hell. Got to much experiences with it. (The Netherlands)

robertlagrant• 5 years ago

my generation as a whole seems a bit more open minded with a lot of things compared to previous ones

I know this isn't your main point, but I don't see much difference so far. I think the internet has allowed people who don't fit in locally to fit in with groups they find online, which is good, but that's been happening for 30 years.

mhh__3• 5 years ago

There is more "room" for normal people, but the true devotees I think are still a bit out-there. I have been noticing recently that I fundamentally think differently to my peers, but am completely at home with people I have met through common technological ideology.

A "friend" recently told me off for being too nerdy, and I couldn't help but think (maybe it's too self-centered of me, but still) "Fuck you, people like me built the world as it is now so people like you can spend all day playing video games".

garmaine5• 5 years ago

You should have told him that.

memonkey• 5 years ago

usually, with friends, you can say "fuck you, i'm a nerd then" and they would be cool with that

Thiez• 5 years ago

"Fuck you, people like me built the world as it is now so people like you can spend all day playing video games"

Did you personally contribute to this great "world building" or are you just being tribal?

cjfd2• 5 years ago

"Fuck you, people like me built the world as it is now so people like you can spend all day playing video games".

Well, if they spend all day playing video games who exactly is or is not the nerdy one here.....?

BoxOfRain• 5 years ago

I’m grateful for having a friend group that’s mostly not in the tech industry but just accepts my nerdiness nonetheless.

This kind of technical culture has been around donkey’s years, if you read some of the conversations between early wireless telegraphy operators it sounds a lot like the early internet! Babbage himself basically told a British politician to “STFU noob, garbage in garbage out” when asked whether his difference engine would emit the right results if its operator put in the wrong figures into it.

yarky• 5 years ago

I'm 40-something and I wonder if that's the case with today's teenagers or 20-something generation.

That's exactly what I've realized and why I decided to get serious about cs. I didn't start in cs because I thought it was for geniuses. Then I realized a lot of non-geniuses were getting the good paying jobs, so I switched to cs just to realize that's what I actually enjoy learning about.

So yeah, it looks like it's the new banking for overachievers but the lack of passion is easy to spot I'd say.

Abishek_Muthian• 5 years ago

I'm disabled so when I was child my playtime was tightly controlled as my parents were worried that I might get hurt so I played with toys and thereby electronics.

When I was a teen I understood that I'm a liability in sports although my friends tried to be inclusive so again I spent my time doing nerdy things alone until I got my computer and naturally became good at it.

In college I was forced to take on Computer Science by my parents as they felt it was the least physically tasking yet provides a good career; They were right.

Even though my story fits the narrative of socially awkward being good with computers, as a disabled I didn't have much of choice and I feel this might be true for many.

cjfd2• 5 years ago

Well, the day has only 24 hours so every hour that you spend on dealing with people is an hour you do not spend on dealing with computers and vice versa. And one has a shot at getting good at what one does often.

KozmoNau7• 5 years ago

I've worked in IT for a decade and a half, and I just don't think there's the same room for the stereotypical "not a people" person, as there used to be.

As awareness and importance of the field has grown, it has become a lot more diverse and involves a lot more interaction with other people.

For better or worse, you can't just hide in your safe corner and quietly build stuff anymore, you have to interact with people and accept having the lights shine on you from time to time.

Just for an overview of my workplace, I think we've got maybe 7 or 8 nationalities, one person is a dance instructor, one is an almost stereotypical handsome player who woos all the girls at parties, one plays D&D with his kids, one is a weightlifter, one competes in bicycle races on a high level. It's still mostly male, but there are more and more women in IT now.

Common to all of them - no matter their other traits - is that they're all extremely inquisitive and curious and have a great desire to learn, and I think that's the most important factor.

blablabla123• 5 years ago

Around 20 years ago I found it quite difficult to find anyone actually interested in computers. I mean not for gaming but rather exploring cool tools and software development. And even among those interested only few had that much interest that they would go and learn a programming language or install Linux. Of course that was a time when Computers and Internet access were rather expensive and documentation was usually only available in books. So naturally most kids using computers had parents with some sort of engineering/mathematics background or were themselves really interested in that.

I think this is now changing in unexpected ways, one is that devices are becoming really locked down. (On the other hand you can now install a full-featured GNU/Linux as a app... FWIW when I tried Linux the first time it was with Winlinux or so on Win95) On the other hand documentation has become extremely good, it's more common to see devs with no engineering/math background at all.

fsckboy• 5 years ago

I wonder if this is less common today though

no, autism spectrum disorder (formerly called asperger's) is not less common today. and, btw, some hypothesize the awkwardness comes not from a lack of empathy, but actually hyperempathy, and stallman's concerns for social policy can be seen as empathetic

wizzwizz4• 5 years ago

and, btw, some hypothesize the awkwardness comes not from a lack of empathy, but actually hyperempathy,

I don't think it's either; I think it's a different empathy. For some, it might be a subset of “normal empathy”, and for others it might be a superset, but those are probably exceptions. From talking to people, it seems like strong empathy with the easy-to-imagine (e.g. familiar) experiences of others, but less empathy with unfamiliar experiences of others – sometimes to the point where it's hard to tell the emotional state of others, or even predict how they'd react to certain situations.

I'm guessing this has something to do with the "harder to model other people as being different people" thing that some people have – see the “pencil in a Smarties tube” test.[0]

[0] https://www.toxicdrums.com/smarties-pencils-child.htm

boomboomsubban3• 5 years ago

It's amazing that someone could consider Stallman one of their heroes and not be aware that calling him the "father of open source" would piss him off.

edit also this is from 2016, which is why recent events were not even hinted at.

mastazi4• 5 years ago

That's true, the first time I learned the difference between Open Source and Free Software, it was by reading something that Stallman wrote many years ago on the FSF website. He's always been very big on making that distinction.

garmaine5• 5 years ago

To be fair, "Open Source" basically coined to mean "free software, but not as Stallman means it."

cgio• 5 years ago

Is it fair to say though that, even though unintentionally, he is the father of open source? I wonder whether free software is just his “favourite”.

sjansen• 5 years ago

The two terms imply fundamentally different motivations.

Free Software came first, with the motivation being maximizing user freedom.

The term Open Source was created as a marketing hack in response to the observation that open collaboration lead to higher quality software but Free Software was being misunderstood as "cheap software".

While many Open Source advocates appreciate the freedom it provides, in the early days the focus was almost entirely on quality as they tried to increase awareness. Richard Stallman's reaction at the time made it very clear he felt that Open Source was trying to hijack his mission to provide user freedom and replace it with corporate value as the new goal.

(I suspect rms still does, but I stopped watching him tilt at windmills about a decade ago. We owe him a lot for laying the foundations that made F/OSS possible, but we owe just as much to many other early contributors, including Bruce Perens and Eric S. Raymond for the Open Source marketing hack that built on that foundation. Not to mention Netscape, Mozilla, & IBM for demonstrating that F/OSS was for more than just "long haired hippies".)

908B64B1975• 5 years ago

also this is from 2016, which is why recent events were not even hinted at.

Wasn't the cancel Stallman movement pretty much... an anonymous blog post and nothing else?

bitwize3• 5 years ago

It was decades of stories and complaints from women about his bad behavior, as well as men who have worked closely with him and covered for him during that time. Now the bill has come due, and no one will cover for him because he hasn't learned. The best thing anyone can do for him is to let him face the consequences he brought upon himself.

seoaeu3• 5 years ago

The proverbial straw was a blog post (which notably was not anonymous) that summarized decades of objectionable behavior, triggered by some messages RMS sent to a 6000 person workplace email list which downplayed rape allegations against a man accused of sexually assaulting an under-aged trafficked sex slave

wrycoder• 5 years ago

This is really bad. I recommend reading Steven Levy’s Hackers instead.

DonHopkins• 5 years ago

There's an old joke about RMS nailing himself to a cross. It's a physical joke that requires some miming to pull off properly, but I'll try to describe it in words:

RMS is trying to nail himself to a cross, and at first he drives one nail into his right hand by holding the hammer in his left hand and pounding. Then he gets this frustrated look on his face when he realizes he can't do it all by himself. So he plaintively whines "Will you please help me nail my other hand to the cross? I can't do it myself." So you take the hammer and nail from him, and start nailing his other hand to the other side of the cross. Then he loudly complains, "Owwwwww! That huuuuurts!!!!"

Richard Stallman and the History of Free Software and Open Source (2016)

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