U.S. expected to sue Google next week as DOJ seeks support from states

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tech-antitrust-google/u-s-expected-to-sue-google-next-week-as-doj-seeks-support-from-states-idUSKBN26K3SR

by pseudolus • 6 years ago

158 53 6 years ago

reuters.com

Waterluvian• 6 years ago

I think the article might not be doing a good job explaining the case because this doesn’t exactly sound like wrongdoing to me:

“... looking to disadvantage rivals such as Microsoft’s Bing by depriving them of the data about users and user preferences that they need...”

Anyone care to sum up the argument?

asdfasgasdgasdg2• 6 years ago

We won't know what the arguments are until the lawsuit is actually filed, or until it leaks. We don't even know what laws Google are alleged to have broken, nor what remedy the government seeks. And one thing we for sure won't know for a long, long time is whether they'll be able to make anything stick.

jacobwilliamroy• 6 years ago

I think a big part of this case is actually going to be the PR challenge of breaking up monopolies when there are so many moneyed individuals currently profiting from that monopoly's expansion. People don't dream of building their own livelihood anymore, most employees of tech companies these days just want their company to be consumed by another, bigger company so they can GTFO.

This kind of short term thinking is actually bad for the economy and bad for customers because it leads to the proliferation of pump-and-dump businesses which exist solely for the purpose of being bought and sold rather than actually providing some kind of utility to the customer. This can have real consequences, such as how Arlo purports to be a "security company" to which people should entrust their safety despite the fact that their interface is so dysfunctional it would be a small miracle if any of their customers could actually figure out how to use their arlo footage in court. I know this because I spent the last summer running a small surveillance operation, and doing so required an off-site file server with high speed internet and a few python scripts to glue all the pieces together.

And to anyone thinking "well if it doesnt provide utility it wouldn't get bought" you can hold your tongue because I don't believe that. That's an irrational argument. Useless, low quality goods and services make a killing on the market and we all know it. Anyone who has taken a real close look at any "smart" device certainly knows it.

ignostic• 6 years ago

Long story short, Google is using its search dominance to provide unfair advantage to other Google and Alphabet products. This is primarily done through features or "snippets" competitors cannot earn or even pay for.

Many of the details are not yet public. The individual investigations (some being conducted by states) are said to focus on multiple issues, but the one with the most discussion and evidence centers on the issue I described.

For example, google a flight you may take regularly, or just "LAX to JFK". Your first result after ads will probably be a Google widget. Can sites like Kayak or Expedia get that widget? No. Can they compete with Google showing real-time prices right in the SERP? No. It's the definition of anti-competitive behavior.

Google originally argued they don't advantage their own products. They've since admitted they do. Meanwhile they company is moving into more and more verticles and squeezing others out using its search engine as the weapon.

The vast majority of qualified traffic comes from search engines, and for my sites it's more like 95-97% Google. Many have argued the 90% market share figure is too low, because Yahoo and Microsoft include their internal searches to sound better. If Google decides to create a search widget competing with some function of my site, even if Google's version is really shitty, my business suffers badly. This isn't theoretical. Go Google "speed test." Your first result is a Google widget they added to search results. Ookla IMO has a much better product. But Google's widget is first for basically everyone who searches for a speed test. The M-Lab/Google test caps out for me well short of my real bandwidth. But I guarantee Ookla's traffic took a beating when Google decided to insert their own product at the top.

Unfortunately, Google has a lot of lawyers, and it's also reported that Barr is trying to rush this thing forward to provide a win for Trump. The actual career lawyers are arguing they can build a solid case, but they need more time. My fear is we'll see this thing rushed through and the changes will be cosmetic. And I do think Google's actions are a real problem. The most recent testimony before congress was pretty shocking. Facebook and Alphabet execs were basically admitting to anti-competitive behavior.

visarga2• 6 years ago

"LAX to JFK" - at the top, after 3 ads, I see links to Expedia, Orbitz, Kayak, Travelocity and Skyscanner. Then comes the flights widget. Then Expedia direct link, another widget - this time a COVID alert for how many flights are still operating this route - quite useful and well placed. After that many more direct links.

I don't see anything wrong. It's a good response page. If they didn't provide the widget the page would be worse, I would have to dig through all the links and filter the noise to find information.

There's an assumption that people come to Google in order to find websites. No, they come for information. They can get information in many ways. People are not there just to provide sales to organically ranked sites.

In a few years voice interfaces will probably replace text for search. In a voice interface, you have to provide the answer directly in plain language, not a link to a website. What would the displaced websites do, sue for monopolistic practices again?

nl6• 6 years ago

While this is a commonly understood argument on HN, this doesn't appear to be the Federal Government's argument at all.

Instead, they are arguing that Google should be forced to share user data with rivals (like Bing).

This might surprise many in the tech community - even those who are sympathetic to the idea that big tech is too big (because it seems a terrible idea).

However, it appears to be a fairly common lobbying point. Notably in Australia a similar argument against Google in the news field is seen where news organisations don't get access to audience preferences for advertising.

TL;DR: The government appears to be looking to force Google to share personal data with other companies which is likely to be the opposite of what many consumers want.

darkwizard422• 6 years ago

I see where you are coming from, but...I don't see how its the responsibility of a search engine to provide fair and unbiased access to the web's ability to answer your query.

Ex. speed test - Google's responsibility is to the customer who wants to most likely conduct a speed test. Displaying an in-result widget that does so completes the query that the user requires.

The line is certainly drawn if you searched "in-home IoT device" and Google showed its own Nest/Home products at the top even above ad space without paying for it, but the example you provided doesn't really break it for me.

Google doesn't prevent you from finding Ookla, doesn't bury it or delist it, doesn't stop you from going direct to the site... I don't see how that is going to hold up in court. There are competitors to Google that can offer a user a search experience that gives them lots of choice on how to answer their query, Google is just choosing (and customer's are probably responding to it as well) a better way to answer the query.

Posing this as a hypothetical argument, I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

m0zg2• 6 years ago

Barr is trying to rush to provide a win

That seems implausible. Under the best of circumstances this is going to take half a decade. Wheels of justice turn slowly.

varbhat• 6 years ago

Ok,they are basically telling Google to share data about it's users and user preferences to it's rivals and probably also US Government.

So,first thing, spying on users is bad. It might be ok to collect user's information with their consent to improve the service(like Google is doing now),but isn't it written in Terms and conditions that those data will be used to improve services(not sharing/using them for personal gains)?

Also, is Microsoft sharing data of Windows users with other rivals too?

shakna4• 6 years ago

but isn't it written in Terms and conditions that those data will be used to improve services(not sharing/using them for personal gains)?

Most T&Cs do not stand up once they get to court. Part of contract negotiation requires that the person agreeing, is capable of understanding and agreeing. Walls of text don't fit that definition.

Google tries very hard to work around limitations such as these in the "About these Terms" [0], with such gems as:

If it turns out that a particular term is not valid or enforceable, this will not affect any other terms.

Which in itself may not always be legal to say. It isn't as simple as Google simply making statements. Unless the two involved in the contract, Google and the user, have an equal say in things, then the contract enters into grey areas of law. Where they have found themselves unprotected on occasion.

[0] https://policies.google.com/terms?hl=en#toc-about

toast0• 6 years ago

If Google says they're not going to share data, and then shares the data 'because it wasn't really a contract, cause you all didn't really consent', that's pretty ballsy.

nl6• 6 years ago

This is completely wrong.

Almost every contract has terms like "If it turns out that a particular term is not valid or enforceable, this will not affect any other terms" in it, because some specific terms may not be enforceable in some jurisdictions.

Every contract I write has this term, and I can't think of one I've signed that doesn't.

feelthepress• 6 years ago

Facebook stands to benefit (again) from US Gov't action against a tech company.

rootsudo• 6 years ago

This is the most concerning factor - Facbook reach is tremendous across it's media platform and most people still do not associate WhatsApp or Instagram as Facebook properties, even though they literally updated the apps to say "By Facebook" on them.

I do not know how to rate the governance or ethics of either company (FB/Alphabet.)

ergocoder• 6 years ago

US/DOJ with no priorities. Off my head, there are a few other companies that are universally hated and definitely a monopoly wink wink ISP wink wink.

But hey let's sue Google first to force them to share my personal data with its competitors. Wtf

tehjoker• 6 years ago

The USG always works to make capitalism work for the consensus of the biggest companies (in this case, all of Google's pissed off rivals). Just work from that perspective and it will always make sense. I am always shocked when I see a decision at the federal level that does anything for anyone that isn't a bigco.

ilaksh• 6 years ago

For people who are concerned about monopolization of internet search, look into things like YaCy.

sigstoat2• 6 years ago

“things like”? is there anything else?

yacy was pretty meh when i tried dealing with it. though it did tend to turn up some stuff google didn’t (sometimes for the better, but mostly not)

throwawaysea• 6 years ago

I have used DuckDuckGo for a few years and it works fine for most searches. I fall back to Google using DDG’s “!g” feature for the rest.

Here’s a list of other alternative search engines: https://fossbytes.com/google-alternative-best-search-engine/

teclordphrack2• 6 years ago

I'm just going to put this out there.

Maybe, instead of debating what the current laws are we should be debating how we regulate/govern/exist in the thing that is the reality we live in and see coming to fruition.

I totally think that if the feds(most powerful force we have today on the planet) decide you did something wrong they will find you did.

THAT IS REALLY WHAT IS AT ISSUE IN THIS SITUATION.

Citizens of the united states have no right to redress their grievances against the united states outside of the united states. EVEN WHEN THEY ARE AS LARGE AS GOOGLE.

Let me be clear. I AM NOT CALLING ON THE COMPLETE USURPATION OF THE USA'S LEGAL AUTHORITY. I do think that certain issues that have a international legal consequence are going to be needed if the usa does not want to lose prowess in this area.

In all honesty google should just shutdown for 1,..2, ...3,... 7 days and extort the gov to actually operate in a legal manner.

csharptwdec19• 6 years ago

In all honesty google should just shutdown for 1,..2, ...3,... 7 days and extort the gov to actually operate in a legal manner.

Just speaking logically... considering how rarely another government doesn't suffer consequences for such shenanigans... how do you think that would go for a corporation? Long term, probably not well.

Traster• 6 years ago

Does anyone know if this type of litigation is to do with the presidential election? Bytedance seemed transparently political at least. Is this too? Or does the DoJ just move insanely slowly AND with no consideration to political events?

pm90• 6 years ago

It doesn't seem like the case itself is political, since we've been hearing about it for quite a while now. Most of the naked partisan attacks have been (thankfully) easily debunked; e.g. the supposed case of discarded ballots in a swing state, which turned out to be a manufactured hoax and was exposed as such pretty quickly.

The timing may be political though. We shall see when they file the case.

m0zg2• 6 years ago

Looks like China, of all countries, is also "expected to sue Google" as of today: https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/exclusive-china-preparing-a.... Bafflingly, Europe has not yet joined the pile-on.

username905• 6 years ago

The business people at Google who does android deals are pretty scummy though, EU has already fined them 5 billions for that.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/18/technology/google-eu-andr...

username905• 6 years ago

So the complaint is basically "Google isn't selling user data to us"? What is the intended end result, all user data should be free for purchase in order to maximize corporate profit?

U.S. expected to sue Google next week as DOJ seeks support from states

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