Cerebral Micro-Structural Changes in Covid-19 Patients

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30228-5/fulltext

by seesawtron • 6 years ago

76 41 6 years ago

rpiguy• 6 years ago

Vast majority of people recover just fine and what ever neurological structural changes are caused by the virus appear to have very little affect.

The article claims that both non-severe and severe patients get the same damage, meaning that globally we have at minimum 10 million people with this damage, probably many time more since most cases aren't tested.

But the article does very little to study if these changes actually effect people and for how long.

Evidence, as well as basic observation points to people recovering very well from the disease (we have over 4 million cases in the US but the number of people with crippling long-term effects is minimal, otherwise we'd be able to observe a massive group of impaired individuals).

The article does very little to illustrate that impact on people.

For example, people who lose their sense of smell, which is listed as symptom in this Chinese study get it back and they get it back faster than when they lose the sense of smell with other viruses:

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/08/thousands...

aphextron• 6 years ago

Evidence, as well as basic observation points to people recovering very well from the disease

For now. We have no idea what kind of long term damage this is going to cause yet.

logicchains• 6 years ago

For now. We have no idea what kind of long term damage this is going to cause yet.

Has there ever been an influenza/coronavirus-like infection with less than 0.1% fatality rate in working-age people (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/singapore/) that caused lasting disability in a significant proportion of the population? Given how the immune system works it doesn't make sense that someone's body is good enough at fighting the virus that it only displays mild cold-like symptoms yet weak enough that it somehow lets the virus cause serious long-term damage.

seesawtron3• 6 years ago

> But the article does very little to study if these changes actually effect people and for how long.

The higher bilateral gray matter volumes (GMV) in olfactory cortices, hippocampi, insulas, left Rolandic operculum would have long-term consequences which are indeed what it means: "long-term" i.e. too short to see physical manifestations of the impact in this study. But these changes in the brain are in itself horrifying given that the symptoms only manifest as respiratory and so on.

francisofascii• 6 years ago

the number of people with crippling long-term effects is minimal

The thousands of of reported "long haulers" is troubling. While not crippling, feeling tired and feverish every day for months does not sound pleasant. It also raises awareness that viruses in general (not just Covid) could potentially help explain long term lingering health issues.

mmmeff• 6 years ago

I'm a long hauler. Caught COVID in March. Still suffering. 28 years old. AMA.

manmal• 6 years ago

CFS has long been suspected to be caused by an immune deficiency, causing hard to detect chronic EBV/strep/... infections that result in the manyfold problems affected people have.

creaghpatr• 6 years ago

Remember, the Lancet is not a reliable source and has already gotten caught fearmongering earlier this year:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04/lancet-retracts-major-co...

DiogenesKynikos• 6 years ago

Lancet is one of the foremost medical journals. Peer review does not filter out 100% of bad papers.

For very understandable reasons, there's a huge pressure right now to get information about CoVID-19 out to the public (and to the medical community) quickly. That means that more bad papers are going to slip through right now.

But what's the alternative? Would you rather that critical results about CoVID-19 be withheld for longer, in order to more thoroughly vet results? That's reasonable, but it involves a trade-off, and the Lancet would no doubt face criticism in the opposite direction if they withheld papers for longer.

ghthor2• 6 years ago

Except when the hypothesis is that COVID and millimeter wave radiation might be linked, that information is ruthlessly censoring by the publishing powers.

yters• 6 years ago

Combine such a capability with neuroscience and imagine the possibilities!

NiceWayToDoIT6• 6 years ago

I am reading these negative neural impacts ranging from bad to worse, and I cannot help but think, how come there is not something in nature, a virus or bacteria, on the whole planet that can do something good? I do not know help boosting confidence, making people happier, increasing cognitive abilities, maybe improving your sense of smell or direction, gain muscle... at least something, instead it is always a very long list of destruction. Sorry guys, I am trying to offset, reading this paper made me depressive.

EDIT: After reading all the answers, I remember a quote, probably answer to my question. It is not possible because we are very complex organism, and regardless how some virus or tiny bug can find flaws in our complexity, in the same way as randomly injected piece of code cannot improve application, the same way, is an equal chance that a virus will introduce positive change in our genome which will improve parameters we desire.

Quote was Hoyle's Fallacy used for something completely different: "the chance that a tornado sweeping through a junkyard might assemble a Boeing 747"

So it seems we need to wait for few million years or to really on marvel of genetically engineering.

p.s. Thank you guys!

bitdizzy• 6 years ago

Yeast and Lactobacillus are the best friends you never knew you had.

troughway• 6 years ago

The intent behind most of this is to drive a constant sense of fear and worry without any rational cooldown, so expect to be depressed among other things.

Until HN wakes up from fearmongering and "doomscrolling", the beatings will continue.

DenisM• 6 years ago

Ok, but who and why is spreading the doom and gloom? I just don't see the profit motive.

throwaway29102• 6 years ago

Do you have any sources to back up this claim or are you just issuing edicts?

NiceWayToDoIT6• 6 years ago

It is scientific paper, not a daily news, my outcry was more as frustration with the universe than fear from pandemic or economic impact.

magicnubs• 6 years ago

There are tons of bacteria that are either neutral, good for you, or that you even *need". You just only hear about the ones that are bad for us, because they are comparitively rare.

NiceWayToDoIT6• 6 years ago

I know about good bacteria in fact 10 times as many microbial cells in the human body than human cells. We are more symbiotic organism than anything else. Someone said that "No one noticing when you are healthy because you are healthy",

I was referring more to enhancing nominal abilities, something that will positively change our body, maybe make it stronger, more resistivity, maybe act with our T cells to clean bad bacteria in gut that may cause depression ...

Instead process is always painfully slow, evolution over millions of years, just to get one positive trait.

aqme28• 6 years ago

Toxoplasmosis does a whole host of negative things, but a few that could be considered positive, e.g. "Toxoplasma-infected male students are about 3 cm taller than Toxoplasma-free subjects and their faces are rated by women as more masculine and dominant." (https://jeb.biologists.org/content/216/1/127)

delecti• 6 years ago

There are a few examples of adaptive addons that we've integrated to the point that we almost don't think of them as separate anymore. Going back really far, mitochondria are eukaryotic organisms that are now just part of our cells. Gut bacteria are likewise pretty vital, especially in ruminant species.

It's just comparatively rare because it's easier to benefit off of an environment non-sustainably (at least in the short term).

LargoLasskhyfv3• 6 years ago

There are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage which are used in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phage_therapy

NiceWayToDoIT6• 6 years ago

In addition to my comment to @magicnubs this is nice but again it is like form of probiotics, it makes your body function in nominal state.

Is there anything that will enhance abilities permanently? For instance *(I know it is bad example) Caffeine will temporary enhance your state of alertness... etc...

JoshuaDavid• 6 years ago

The basic answer is that humans are an evolved system, and any simple unambiguously helpful change in the context of the environment of early humans spread fairly quickly throughout the entire population. If there was an infectious disease that improved sense of smell through any simple mechanism, it's almost certain that either some human somewhere had a mutation that did the same thing, or that "infectious disease" will become a symbiote (see gut bacteria for example).

So the basic answer is "you don't see them because you'd only notice them in the time between first being seen and being present in everyone in the population, which is a very short time compared to the time before they first occurred and the time after they reach 100% of the population".

seesawtron3• 6 years ago

> that can do something good? I do not know help boosting confidence, making people happier..

Plants are doing good for the planet and for the living beings all the time (mostly). They provide you oxygen, cooler temperature and food which definitely makes me a happy person. And yet we value consumer products, building commercial centers, roads (for cars), infrastructure for industries over preserving forests.

NiceWayToDoIT6• 6 years ago

All true, I have not tried to diminish that in any way. Being healthy is one of the most important things for happy life. I was wandering is there something that make you more than you are, positive DNA change, constructive instead of destructive.

Some naturally "engineered" CAS-9/CRISPER that will make our nominal values better, more adaptive to environment...

eximius• 6 years ago

There are. Gut flora, whatever proto-germ gave us mitochondria, etc.

Most won't be and new ones are unlikely to be very transmissible (because transmissibility would imply features that would immediately make it negative) not would it be very noticeable (hey doc, my joints feel better than they did yesterday).

coldcode• 6 years ago

Every time there is a discussion on Covid on HN, an army of trolls come out to pooh pooh everything. We are supposed to be better than Reddit here. It's about discussion not dissing. You don't have to agree with everything, but you also should not be ruining the thoughtful discussion.

Cerebral Micro-Structural Changes in Covid-19 Patients

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