Am I charging too high for design?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2287575

by ashraful • 15 years ago

12 22 15 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Hi. I am a freelance web designer. My portfolio is at www.madebyargon.com

I generally price my designs at $3000-$3500 for a full website redesign/ user interface design. This usually comes to around $40-50/hour which I think is fair.

I have noticed however that a lot of prospective clients, who absolutely love my design, find my prices to be too high.

Am I charging too high? How much would you pay for a redesign of your website or webapp?

geoffw8• 15 years ago

No, your not. I won't even look at your portfolio.

I used to work in creative teams, and I've worked with colleagues who charge £500 a day in the UK. A lot of the value comes in not only the design, but how he packages it up.

(Just looked at your portfolio. I'd say your prices are good).

ashraful5• 15 years ago

If my prices aren't too high, then what am I doing wrong?

blindfly• 15 years ago

It's not that you're actively doing anything wrong it's merely the market. People want everything for nothing. I've seen people shop at Wal-Mart for $1 items only to return them because they weren't the quality they were expecting. Society, blah.

maxbrown2• 15 years ago

The sites look really good - I think they warrant $40-50/hr.

You may want to consider offering multiple "packages" if you don't want to lose those clients. $3000/$40 = 75 hours... if you offer a package that's 25 or 50 hours, you can lower the price and maybe keep the client.

That said,

1. You have to set expectations clearly - if they're not paying for a $3k website, they're not getting a $3k website. (most people will still expect that quality even if they're paying less, for whatever reason) Be clear with them about what they're getting.

2. If you have enough work at that price, don't bother. My guess from you posting this is that you want their business.

ashraful5• 15 years ago

Yes, I'm not getting enough work, and 9 out of 10 people who contact me go elsewhere after hearing my prices, even though all of them love my designs.

The problem with the whole "packages" is that I don't do that. Most people who come to me just want a new design and aren't concern about whether it takes me 10 hours or a hundred. Like-wise I quote a fixed price and not an hourly rate, most being in the $3000-$3500 range.

maxbrown2• 15 years ago

Right - so what I'm saying is you may need to lower your end-product standards. There are certainly clients that will pay $3000-$3500, but many may only be able to afford $800-$1200 say. If you want their business, you need to be able to deliver a product for that budget. Unfortunately, it won't be as good - that's just the nature of it (that's why you have to be very upfront with clients). It doesn't have to go in your portfolio, just your bank account.

thomaslee2• 15 years ago

So 9/10 people come to you, most of the time you quote them $3000/$3500 irrespective of their budget and they walk away?

If you don't want to call them "packages", that's fine -- but if you're giving fixed-price quotes of $3000-$3500 irrespective of the client when all they really want/need is 10-20 hours of your time you might be doing yourself a disservice.

By the same token, if your experience tells you that you really need the 75 hours to do a good job for a client, then don't sell yourself short.

Maybe you need to ask your clients to clarify what their expectations are in terms of hours and incorporate that into your quotes?

Maybe you need to clarify that you can be flexible with the overall price in exchange for less time (e.g. maybe do fewer revisions, simpler designs, whatever -- I'm not really a design expert).

Or maybe it's time to start billing by the hour? :)

Of course, you may hold yourself to a high standard and feel that you require that much time to do a "good job" by your clients. That's fine too, but understand that's a business decision that will leave you with fewer clients.

Just my two cents, but hope it provides some food for thought.

ashraful5• 15 years ago

I should also add that I'm based in Dhaka, Bangladesh. Does this warrant a lower price, since I'm unable to meet with clients face-to-face?

plinkplonk• 15 years ago

"I should also add that I'm based in Dhaka, Bangladesh."

If you mention that upfront, expect a certain set of people to expect you to do the work for 100$ (or less!). Blame outsourcing. ( I live in India fwiw). I make no claim that this is what is happening (I am a developer and know nothing about design and the rates thereof) Just something to be aware of. Good Luck.

kls• 15 years ago

I personally do not think it has any bering on the rate, you charge what the market can bear. Outsourcing was supposed to be the cure to the expensive American and European work force by leveling the playing field. What no one accounted for was there are only so many people in the world that are even interested in doing jobs that are technical in nature. That amount of people is a very small segment of the population so even with Eastern Europe, India and China now supplying the global technical work force there are not enough skilled people to go around. While the market corrected itself, it slowed wage growth, but those days are over and you should charge accordingly. A lot of people in emerging markets like India think they have to undercut US prices to compete which is just no longer a reality, the reality is there are not enough hands to reap the harvest and your leaving money on the table if your trying to compete based on price.

mattm• 15 years ago

No, definitely not. All that matters is you can communicate well and get the job done.

Personally, I would remove the fact that you are based in Bangladesh from your about page. A few years ago I did freelance work and found I could get a better response rate when I mentioned that I was Canadian (even though I was living in China at the time).

Here's what might be going through a prospective's client's mind when they find you. They like your designs, then they read your About page and start forming a price in their mind - maybe $500 - $1000 because you are in Bangladesh. Then when you quote your price, it is way over what they were thinking so they go elsewhere.

Discrimination? Yes. But, like a resume, you don't want to give people anything that could take you out of the running before you've had a chance.

If they ask you where you're located, don't lie but don't bring it up either unless they do first.

I would also spice up the About page and say more about what you offer and why you are good to work with.

Also, I like the VLC website. I visited that site for the first time in a while recently and noticed the new design and thought it looked really good.

gexla• 15 years ago

It's not all prices and design skills. It's also marketing. You need to sell yourself. If you aren't getting the work then you are in the wrong markets or you aren't doing a good enough job at the sales part.

Also, there's no way that you can throw out a "general" price. The requirements of the sites and the clients are all different. Aside from the workload differences, you can double your prices for some clients and get away with it just because you get that gut feeling about it.

ashraful5• 15 years ago

Since price doesn't seem to be a problem, I could use some more in-depth suggestions.

I submitted a new AskHN thread to get some ideas. Please comment if you have anything to add.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2287812

alexchu• 15 years ago

I think the problem comes down to the kind of market and audience you're attracting. As a freelancer you really have to position yourself for the right market that corresponds to your rates. HN is a very designer/entrepreneur driven community. my guess is that people on HN would want to spend less money on design and more on development.

I would update your website itself also. To me your website doesn't speak the same level of sophistication as the piece you see in the portfolio. Your website represents your self and your identify as a designer. Dress it up a bit, this is your best chance to really showcase your design sense and originality. As many other people mentioned before, package your product well.

As a full time freelancer, you should spend at least 30-50% of your time marketing yourself and networking with potential clients. Building a solid customer database and having these customers refer you to perspective employees are most important if you want to have a consistent flow of work.

Are you really putting your work out there? Here's a quick checklist to get the ball rolling.

1. Do you regularly update your portfolio with new pieces? 2. Do you have a profile on all the designer networks? (behance.net is a good one to start with). 3. Do you keep in touch with your past clients and make sure they're happy with your work? 4. Have you considered starting a blog that would attract potential customers with valuable information about graphic design and design theories that they could use for their own projects?

I think with the quality and level of work in your portfolio you certainly deserve to get that rate. I've worked with other designers who charge twice as much as you do, but then again, they all presented their web presence really well. When a customer tells you your rates are too expensive, it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have the budget. It could mean that they don't perceive your value at the price you quoted. As long as you can convince your clients that you're worth every penny and MORE, you should have no problem getting the rates you want.

calebhicks• 15 years ago

Assuming you are targeting the correct market for your work (which other commenters have addressed), then you need to let basic supply/demand gauge your pricing.

So the question to ask yourself is this: do you have enough work? If you have more work than you want, raise your prices until you have less work. If you have less than you want, consider lowering your prices. If you are already taking less than you feel you should, then focus directly on who you are targeting and how you are approaching them.

cullend• 15 years ago

You do superb work. Do not be ashamed of your skill. Tell them to fuckoff and forward the mail to some cheaper junior person you know. Adapt to keep a comfortable income, but, great work.

notahacker• 15 years ago

9 out of 10 people are just window shopping and will contact several other web designers with the same brief.

Additionally, you have the problem of people expecting you to be cheap because one of the few things your site tells me about you (other than showing me some sound enough finished work) is that you're based in a low income country and know how to use the right tools.

People that want a cheap offshore guy that knows their way around Photoshop go straight to the enquiry form. People that are prepared to pay more care about whether your design goes through multiple iterations before the final version, whether you'll work with them to make it reflect their company image, whether you understand usability, whether you've worked with the same clients over a number of years etc. - they'll probably skip your site altogether in favour of the next one with more marketing fluff.

sagacity• 15 years ago

A bit late in the day, but FWIW, here is the clickable link:

http://www.madebyargon.com

niico• 15 years ago

Holy crap. 3000$ for a redesign could pay me a penthouse here at Buenos Aires.

damoncali• 15 years ago

It's a marketing thing. Startups won't pay crap because we're cheap. Socialite fashionistas working the art gallery circuit will drop big money on pretty pictures. You just need to find someone who really values what you do (which is quite good in my opinion).

Am I charging too high for design?

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