Why Johnny can't hypothesize: A discussion about math and science education

http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=why-johnny-cant-hypothesize-a-discu-2009-10-26

by cwan • 15 years ago

11 19 15 years ago

This article is way off, on so many things.

Why are U.S. children so far behind in science and math compared with those in other developed countries?

Because the US has fewer high performing Asians and more low performing Blacks/Hispanics than other developed countries. That's all there is to it.

http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-abou...

Convincing star college scientists to enter the field of K-12 education can be a hard sell, especially when comparing salaries of public school teachers with those elsewhere in the science industry.

I don't know exactly what the "science industry" is, but in general this is bunk. K-12 education is paid vastly better (in terms of money and job security) than most scientists. Perhaps tenured profs do better, but most scientists are not tenured profs.

w1ntermute• 15 years ago

In case you didn't realize, that sounds incredibly racist.

throwawaymar2• 15 years ago

I'm sure he does realize. The problem is that it's possible to believe this without being racist, but not possible in the US today to say it without appearing racist. It's one of the more obvious Things You Can't Say.

I'm so concerned about appearing racist that I don't even want to post in this thread under my usual account, so I applaud yummy for his willingness to say things that need saying even though it costs him personally in status.

yummyfajitas5• 15 years ago

That's why I like HN. I can make a factually correct statement with conclusions that are politically incorrect and not be accused of harboring racial bias or animosity towards people of other races.

However, in the interest of honesty, I will admit to racism in one arena completely unrelated to the discussion here - I prefer dating dark skinned women to light skinned ones.

pgbovine• 15 years ago

i think the curtness of his statement makes it easy to interpret as racist. however, it's possible to interpret his statements in a more neutral way. he isn't making any claims as to the origins of the achievement gap. e.g., it would be racist to claim that certain racial groups achieve lower because they're inherently lazy and stupid and destined to fail. but it would not be racist to claim that the causes of the achievement gaps have little to do with individuals but rather are caused by sociological and historical factors

alain94040• 15 years ago

(I know this has been discussed last week already on HN but...)

I'll share you a personal true story [1] : when I was in middle school, in a 100% white town on the East Coast, 6th grade. Learning division. Say, 4 | 16. I would compute the answer: "0.25". Fine, I knew that from having just transferred from Europe. The only problem was that the expected answer was 16/4=4. They were still dividing integer values only, no decimals, and I just got confused because US and Europe write divisions in opposite directions.

Bottom line: curriculum was at least 1 year behind in math, and it didn't get any better by 12th grade. That being said, US education placed so much emphasis on soft social skills, so what you lose in math, you gain in future marketing/business acumen.

[1] I am aware that one story doesn't prove anything

SigmundA2• 15 years ago

What are you basing this off of? Just looking at Payscale, k-12 median is about 42k per year, a research scientist is over 60k median, all scientist salaries listed the lower end is around 50k:

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/All_K-12_Teachers/Salary...

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Research_Scientist/S...

yummyfajitas5• 15 years ago

I'm mainly comparing people of comparable age, and including all the possible "scientist" career paths (not just the very successful paths). I'll use NYC salary schedules for concrete numbers.

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/72DE1FF1-EDFC-40D7-9D61-...

22. (fresh out of college). Teacher gets $45k (for working 9 months/year) with great benefits + defined benefit pension. The scientist (grad student, working 12 months/year) gets about $20k. With some luck, the grad student gets health care.

27. (PhD granted). Teacher is up to about $50k, maybe more, and has tenure. Scientist will, with luck, get a job as a postdoc. Pay will range from $30-60k, and his contract is up after 3 years. Many scientists will fail to get a postdoc, and will either work at a low end teaching college (pay ~ $30-45k), become an adjunct (usually with pay < $20k) or leave the field entirely.

30. Teacher is up to $60k, maybe $70k if they got a masters. If the scientist gets a tenure track job, his salary is up to maybe $80k (if he works at a Research 1), or considerably less if he doesn't. He might instead be working on his second postdoc (pay $30-60k). Or he might be working at a low end teaching college (pay perhaps up to 50-60k), or still an adjunct (pay < $20k).

In some cases, scientists in this age range might go to work at the corporate "Research Scientist" jobs you described. In that case, they might be getting around $50k, perhaps up to $120k in hot fields.

35. Teacher, if I'm reading the NYC chart right, is between 70 and 85k. The scientist might have gotten tenure, in which case he is probably making close to $100k. He might not get promoted, in which case he is back to $80k (assuming he finds another tenure track job). He might be working on his third/fourth postdoc, where he is still in the $30-60k range. Or he might be an adjunct, pay < $20k.

The top scientists are certainly paid better than teachers. But most scientists are not. And adjusting for time worked (teachers don't work very hard, scientists do) and 3 months of vacation, scientists are definitely paid worse.

daniel-cussen• 15 years ago

I don't know why there's such a focus on getting scientists into education. Scientists are often born with it, get it from their parents or peers, from the environment, wait till college, etc. Sure, some of them need the teacher to help them, but it's not as big an issue as they make it out to be.

joel4039• 15 years ago

I think one of the comments on the original article sums up my thoughts:

  "Why? You don't think the fact that a majority of the US

population is superstitious, and teaches their offspring that the world is the pet project of a master magician might have anything to do with it?"

sorbus• 15 years ago

It's only going to get worse. Just look at all the efforts to stop evolution from being taught in schools, and, in at least one state, to make it illegal for teachers to grade answers as incorrect if the answer is supported by the religious beliefs of the student.

orev• 15 years ago

What a surprise, another article that blames the teachers. They are not the problem, the PARENTS are the problem.

The parents are the ones who think that the only place to learn is in school, and everywhere else you can play gameboy. The parents are the ones who think "being intellectual" is a bad thing and you should be playing football instead. The parents are the ones who opted-out of paying school taxes when they didn't have kids. The parents are the ones who don't make sure their kids are studying. The parents are the ones who yell at the teachers if their kid gets an F, instead of yelling at the kid. The parents are the ones who have driven all the good teachers away from teaching, or have beaten-down the ones who stayed.

You don't have to wonder why so many teachers have a standing appointment at happy hour every day.

Why Johnny can't hypothesize: A discussion about math and science education

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