Capitalism Made This Mess, and This Mess Will Ruin Capitalism

https://www.wired.com/story/capitalocene/

by zamfi • 7 years ago

24 26 7 years ago

meerita9• 7 years ago

Absurd argument against private sector. It claims that "Just 100 companies responsible for 71% of global emissions, study says" but when you read the study you realize that 99% of these companies are state owned and directed corporations, like Petroleos de Venezuela SA (PDVSA) or Abu Dhabi National Oil Co, just to cite examples. Again, the anticapitalism bias is absurd, since capitalism is the most sustainable system in comparison with others. I want to remember to those who believe the goverment will provide the best option, that goverments created the worst environmental disasters: Chernobyl, Aral sea (now gone forever), Four Pests Campaign and the list keeps going.

claudiawerner3• 7 years ago

The thing is that by being owned by a government, it doesn't stop being "capitalism" in the eyes of the proponents of anti-capitalism. For them, the core feature of capitalism is freedom to buy and sell labour, employment of wage labour and accumulation of capital. They may even argue that companies such as PDVSA are private - because they are not under direct democratic control of the labourers who work with those means of production.

I see no reason to believe that capitalism is "the most sustainable" environmentally speaking. Just because it's hard to see big incidents such as Chernobyl or the drying of the Aral sea under capitalism, that doesn't mean that its effects are any less pernicious. In fact, it just means its actions are more transparent and insidious - in the words of a famous author, dystopia without a despot.

Nevertheless, it's worth reading up on socialist critiques of the environmental policy of previous socialist states. Eco-socialism[0] is actually one of the most researched areas of normative social philosophy this decade. They likely explain the points better than the article linked in OP.

[0] https://climateandcapitalism.com/2019/07/27/20-essential-boo...

meerita9• 7 years ago

Is not capitalism what you mention. It's called Corporatism, the theory and practice of organizing society into "corporations" subordinate to the state. It is also known as prebender companies. Companies that operate thanks to the arrangements they have with the State, without the pressure of the institutions of capitalism: competition, rules, etc. And yes, the people who think "it's capitalism anyways" don't realize this fact.

Excel_Wizard• 7 years ago

How would you propose organizing society such that it is environmentally sustainable?

esarbe2• 7 years ago

Don't know why this is getting downvoted.

This is Marx's core definition of Capitalism; the ability to buy and sell labour, employment of wage labour and accumulation of capital. That means that those who own the means of production extract more value from those who labour than what they pay for that labour.

That's Capitalism.

'Rent taking' is missing, that's no reason for a downvote.

TFortunato• 7 years ago

When you read the study, you actually realize that the number isn't 99%, its 59%, which I'm sure you know.

meerita9• 7 years ago

Almost all the companies have entire goverment control or shared with majority, plus, they have to respect local goverment rules.

corodra2• 7 years ago

What's worse is the fact that this rhetoric never gives an alternative other than a renaming of a communist command/control economy. Also known as "that thing tried multiple times in the 20th century that led to the direct slaughter or death by starvation of tens of millions". Sometimes shortened to "that thing that never worked".

Then the argument that the banks and high industry are going to be democratic... yea, on paper. Not in practice. It would still be run by a small group of assholes, no different than right now. The difference is, they'll no longer have to be clever on taking tax dollars.

I could potentially agree with anti capitalist rhetoric if they had a shred of understanding human nature. In capitalism, its base nature is everyone is an asshole thus you must out asshole them. The big thing is, you dont need nobility, allowance from the church or any real allowance from a governing body (other than health/safety depending on your NAICS, which I think is important). I wish I could remember the book. But it showed a chart of countries and their average business filing timelines from start to end. Theres a real damn good correlation between the lower day timelines (USA is avg 6 days depending on industry) and the higer GDP per cap. Countries with high timelines, like Russia with their 400+ days to start a business, which really hasn't changed since the CCCP days, have a shit GDP per cap. The same goes with the more socialist countries of europe compared to the more capitalist countries. But in general, starting a business in Europe is a fucking nightmare compared to this side of the pond.

Anyways, the four pests campaign is one of the funniest and saddest events in the 20th century. I love how that shit got swept under the rug.

meerita9• 7 years ago

There's an inmense example of the difference of total private banking system vs shared (today's system). I will never use banks as the example, since we're moving towards digital and decentralized currencies.

I could potentially agree with anti capitalist rhetoric if they had a shred of understanding human nature. In capitalism, its base nature is everyone is an asshole thus you must out asshole them.

No, capitalism is a sum of institutions, so, it's not being an asshole, because if you're asshole, you will have it hard to triumph. In capitalism, the only way to success is by being good. If you take the opposite approach, you will last until your entire capital is lost. There's huge amounts of book that describe the theory well. The only bad here in the equation are the goverments, because they use the force, and if you believe all humans are "wolves", what you will not do (to solve the problems) is giving a wolf all the powers.

claudiawerner3• 7 years ago

I could potentially agree with anti capitalist rhetoric if they had a shred of understanding human nature.

Are you familiar with the philosophical dilemmas in determining what "human nature" consists of, and the fact that socialists may simply take a different position in this debate? The Marxist theory of human nature is taken as seriously by sociologists and anthropologists as any other.

SantalBlush• 7 years ago

I could potentially agree with anti capitalist rhetoric if they had a shred of understanding human nature. In capitalism, its base nature is everyone is an asshole thus you must out asshole them.

So I can just steal your things then, right? This description of capitalism is completely wrong. In a capitalist system, we place constraints on human behavior because being an asshole often does not increase society's overall utility.

meerita9• 7 years ago

Just another point on the argument. If you belive capitalism is the worst for the climate, then check what the most capitalists countries are in terms of ecology in comparison with other non-capitalists. You can use as reference the Economic Liberty Index.

Capitalism Made This Mess, and This Mess Will Ruin Capitalism

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