Death Of The Mouse?

http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/blog/2011/01/10/death-mouse

by chaostheory • 16 years ago

28 47 16 years ago

appdeveloper.intel.com

stratjakt4• 16 years ago

Microsoft presented their new touch mouse at CES. Yeah, mice are definitely not new and exciting at this point, but until 'touch' becomes ubiquitous they are still quite necessary.

Since I still have to live with mice for the foreseeable future, I'm frustrated at the lack of decent wired mice on the market. Wireless mice always give me tracking issues and I don't like the inconvenience of replacing batteries. But every new mouse on the market is wireless now.

I'd love to try the Apple Magic Mouse or even the new Microsoft touch mouse, but I'm not willing to deal with wireless. Therefore, I'm using an IntelliMouse Explorer 3.0, a mouse first released in 2001, because new mouse innovations don't come with USB models anymore.

I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.

michaelbuckbee• 16 years ago

What are your concerns with using a wireless mouse?

ronaldj2• 16 years ago

I hate batteries.

stratjakt4• 16 years ago

On gaming mice: I don't need anymore DPI. I'm not a gamer, so buying a gaming mouse is just spending money on features that I won't use.

On the latest wireless mice: I have tried new wireless mice. It's not the efficiency of the mouse it self thats the problem. It's the fact that they all use AA or AAA cells. Therefore, I have to eventually remove them, charge them, and replace them in the mouse. Plus the NiCad batteries eventually loose capacity after a few cycles (even the nice kind like Eneloop).

The biggest problem is wireless interference and tracking latency that I experience with all wireless mice.

There still is innovation in the mouse field. Placing a touch interface on a mouse is great. From my short experience with one, I've found it to be the biggest innovation since 'scroll wheels' and 'optical tracking'.

Right now, it seems like seems like the mouse market is divided between gamers (people who want the maximum DPI and lots of programmable buttons) and casual users (people who want a simple, lightweight and wireless mouse for there laptop). Someone like myself (a computer professional, who wants something sturdy, comfortable and reliable) is no longer considered a market.

I really would like to use a mouse with a touch surface, but without a wired USB connection, the inconvenience outweighs the benefits.

CrazedGeek• 16 years ago

Razer's mice are pretty nice: http://store.razerzone.com/store/razerusa/en_US/DisplayCateg...

moultano• 16 years ago

I absolutely swear by evoluent mice: http://www.evoluent.com/ Your forearm is in a much more natural position, and the hard part of it is exposed to the table edge or pad, not the soft part.

vacri4• 16 years ago

They look very friendly to "full-hand" mousers, but a little unfriendly to "finger" mousers. Do you finger-mouse? How do you find it?

EDIT: It's obvious how you find it, you said it directly. Change the question to "do you finger-mouse?" :)

jsz0• 16 years ago

Have you tried a wireless mouse recently? They get pretty great battery life. 2-3 months is pretty common. I think Apple says the Magic Mouse lasts 4 for normal usage which sounds about right to me.

richbradshaw• 16 years ago

I've got the magic mouse, and the batteries do last for ages. Downside is, it's a mouse, so it feels rather clunky to use when you are used to the Apple touchpads.

InclinedPlane2• 16 years ago

Buy a gaming mouse. You won't be forced to game with them, and many of them offer excellent features (variable dpi, for example). I have had good experience with Razer mice but there are other brands as well.

cturner• 16 years ago

    mice .. are still quite necessary.

They're not.

There are plenty of examples of mechanisms for computer interaction that don't require a mouse and cultivate strong loyalty from people who could instead be using a mouse interface: Bloomberg, the unix console, tiling window managers.

People who are into graphics tend towards tablets.

The mouse's success is due to path dependence. New users like it, and so we end up with all these mouse-dependent interfaces.

stratjakt4• 16 years ago

Sure, if you live in vim, emacs, unix console, etc... I, and plenty of other people do not. Not everyone wants to live within a command prompt.

Derbasti3• 16 years ago

Since our eyes are built into the front plate of our head and our head is mounted upright on our torso, displays are bound to stand vertically in front of our eyes. Hands are pretty bad at interacting with vertical surfaces as this requires us to lift both hands and arms for prolonged periods of time.

Hence, there has to be a horizontal, desktop-surface that we manually interact with and a vertical surface that we look at. This seems to require some kind of virtual agent that represents the hand on the screen. I don't think mouses and keyboards are going away any time soon (even though they might get enhanced with other technologies)

julian372• 16 years ago

That is not entirely true. Our head isn't mounted on our torso, it's mounted on our neck which can swivel! That's why you don't have to hold a book or your mobile phone or tablet at eye level.

Also, many marvelous masterpieces have been created by painters working with an easel, where the requirement of having to lift their arms doesn't seem to have been too much of a distraction.

If you really want to interact with a horizontal input device and a vertical output device, mice are not the only option. Pen tablets like those made by Wacom come to mind.

EDIT: Also check out the BendDesk which tries to address the horizontal/vertical issue: http://hci.rwth-aachen.de/benddesk

Derbasti3• 16 years ago

True indeed. But painting involves steady motion of the hand whereas interaction with computers requires much less motion and thus is far more straining for our arms.

Basically, it all revolves around strain: We don't want to strain our arms by holding something up in the air for a long time and we don't want to strain out neck by holding the head in an imbalanced position for a long time. As long as the head can sit more or less balanced on the neck, we are fine. Hence, if we sit back, the comfortable position for the head is to look slightly downwards compared to the rest of the body. However, the head actually is still upright, only the body is at an angle. Of course, we can still move our eyes without straining the neck muscles. We are fine with looking something like 45° downwards. (Actually, we are most comfortable with looking at the ground a few dozen meters/feet away. That is the natural looking angle.)

Hence, monitors should sit slightly below eye level (for practical reasons, they usually extend from there to desktop level). Manual input devices should be located slightly below elbow level one forearm-length in front of the belly.

It will be interesting, which manual input devices will sit there in the future. But I would guess that they will always sit there, and not on the display.

vacri4• 16 years ago

"That's why you don't have to hold a book or your mobile phone or tablet at eye level."

Bad ergonomics though. I actually got what I call a reading injury. 45 minute walk to work gets boring after a while, and after getting tinnitus (which when it was bad is /really/ bad) I was paranoid about listening to music or podcasts. So I read a book on my walk. Walking plus reading = bad for your neck. Took a couple of weeks of not read-walking to get my neck back to not hurting.

That's an extreme example though. However, even in simpler terms, your neck is not made to be held at an angle for extended times. When you curl up on the couch with a book, you'll usually have good support. Do that same angle in an office chair 40 hours a week and you'll start running into problems.

ronaldj2• 16 years ago

Personal computing has left the realm of the desk and the office. Surely, we can use a mouse and keyboard while being mobile, but we wouldn't trade the accuracy and ergonomics of a mouse and keyboard for something else when at home or at work. Many new devices, like the iPad, are consumption devices. You use it to watch videos, to play games, to listen to music, to read books, or to surf the web. Creation on these devices is limited. Surely, you can type an email or take notes in a meeting, but what you gain in mobility you lose in accuracy and ergonomics. The mouse has been around for fifty years and its design has been iterated upon again and again, from a simple block of wood to well formed plastic molds to fit various hand shapes and sizes. Touches and gestures may be the new hot thing, but for real work the mouse isn't going anywhere.

msh• 16 years ago

Ehmmm, the ergonomics of mice is horrid. Just read a bit about mouse damages.

Touch might not be the saviour, but dont holdt the mouse as a good example of ergonomics.

baconhammer• 16 years ago

Darn, I was hoping the article would be about trackballs. :-)

stratjakt4• 16 years ago

I know! Why can't I get a trackball on a laptop anymore! :-P

pkamb• 16 years ago

I'd normally say a resounding "no" for the reasons everyone else is stating: fat finger problem, pixel-perfect precision, arm strain of pointing at a screen, etc.

However, for the last year or so I've exclusively used the Trackpoint on my Thinkpad. Amazing little gizmo. Almost the same precision as a mouse, three buttons to click with, and it keeps your hands in the touch-typing position at all times. I was experiencing pretty bad mouse-button-clicking RSI, and hitting the Trackpoint buttons with my thumbs instead saves me.

Any other fans here?

bergie• 16 years ago

I've been using trackpads instead of mice for the last 6-8 years. This way your working environment is always the same regardless of whether you're at your desk or sitting on the sofa

InclinedPlane2• 16 years ago

I prefer to use the "trackpoint" or a trackball as much as possible. For certain activities like gaming or detailed photoshop work a mouse is preferable due to increased precision, but for ordinary GUI interaction the better ergonomics of the trackball pay off immensely.

I think multi-touch is interesting, and I think it's dominant right now in electronics shows precisely because it is new, interesting, and innovative. But I don't think it will be the one and only pointing device to ever exist in the future.

vacri4• 16 years ago

Big fan of the trackpoint. I hate trackpads, they're always clumsy (though multitouch was a great advancement) but the trackpoint is precise and doesn't easily 'drop' things when you're dragging. Nothing like that trackpad moment when the item you're dragging doesn't quite reach the destination before you hit the side of the pad :)

Found the trackpoint hard to learn though - there's a lot of subtle muscle control. Steep curve, but rewarding once you have it.

potatolicious2• 16 years ago

Touch killing the mouse makes about as much sense as helicopters killing airplanes.

Derbasti3• 16 years ago

How so?

It seems that you are proclaiming that touch would provide more flexibility at the expense of maximum speed and efficiency. I would actually say it is exactly the other way around: Touch killing the mouse makes about as much sense as airplanes killing helicopters. And you know what, I actually kind of prefer airplanes for most commercial flights just as I would say that touch interfaces are actually faster to use and easier to learn than mouse interfaces.

Of course, I often do need helicopter precision on my desktop... But yay for the iPad for casual gaming, websurfing and communicating.

potatolicious2• 16 years ago

Touch is superior for a lot of use cases - but not all, not even close. It will continue to gain more widespread use, sometimes at the expense of traditionally mouse-driven devices, but the mouse is alive and well and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

The helicopters vs. airplanes thing is not a judgment on which is superior - you missed the point; the idea is that when helicopters came around, a lot of new possibilities opened up in flight, some of which were traditionally served by fixed-wings... but in the end both have their uses, and neither killed each other.

drtse4• 16 years ago

Yes, even in 2011 i still don't see anything that could really substitute the mouse on desktops or laptops. Every alternative is a pain to use (e.g. touchpads).

alextp• 16 years ago

Actually, as far as pain goes, my hand hurts a lot sooner with a mouse than with my laptop's touchpad. The touchpad makes it easier to (1) switch between the right and left hands to move the pointer around and (2) move the pointer around without moving my wrists from the keyboard, and both these things really improve computer usage long term for me.

I haven't used a mouse in years.

chaostheory• 16 years ago

I actually work faster using a [touchpad + keyboard] vs [mouse + keyboard]. The trick is placement. The touchpad needs to be right below the keyboard (like a macbook layout) so you can switch faster between typing and moving the cursor as opposed to using a mouse. If your OS / trackpad supports gestures, that increases speed of use as well.

For comfort, imo the whole thing needs to be lower, closer to your legs. If you're using a standing position instead of sitting, just change the position to closer to your thighs.

loewenskind2• 16 years ago

I would absolutely expect the death of the mouse. In its current form that is. In my opinion the mouse interface introduced with the MBP and now purchasable as an external component is a sign of the future. It has the same precision as a regular mouse so you don't have the iPad's touch problem of lack of precision, but you move your finger on the device instead of moving the device.

That alone wouldn't be enough to unseat the vulnerable mouse but the advantage the touchpad is that it can track multiple fingers. I envision a future where the keyboard is extended with a kind of flat space that can take precise input from all 10 fingers.

I've seen a demo somewhere that had exactly that, but I don't know what's come of it.

vacri4• 16 years ago

That 'touchpad plate' of Apple's (can't recall the official name) isn't as precise as a mouse. Our web developer gets a new box from Foxconn about once a week as he pretty much buys one of everything Apple makes. A true afficionado of the touchscreen/pad, he just couldn't use that plate for the specific reason that it's just not accurate enough for serious work. Touch and mouse focus on different things - and the mouse is venerable, not vulnerable :)

loewenskind2• 16 years ago

>isn't as precise as a mouse.

I'll have to take your word for it, but I haven't noticed anything in my minor gaming [1]. But even if it isn't today I don't see why it couldn't be and a mouse will never be able to keep up with multiple inputs a touch interface can. As more and more applications start making use of this feature mice will become less and less usable.

>and the mouse is venerable, not vulnerable

It was indeed a typo, but I would claim it's both at this point. :)

[1] Certain types of games I have, like "flying around shooting stuff" ones require finer control than what I was able to get from a $250 joystick. I had to use the mouse for finer control. I haven't noticed a problem using the touch pad for these.

vain• 16 years ago

I would always buy a good mouse till i bought my macbook pro.

After each 2-3 day hacking session, i would resurface with paining dry eyes and aching wrist and elbow.

Now, after similar sessions, i am only left with dry eyes.

I haven't really read up about the ergonomics of multi-touch track pads, but i think they inflict either lesser RSI or are attacking a different set of muscles.

xd2• 16 years ago

Oh great, another "Death of .." article. When will we see the death of them.

But seriously .. As an avid gamer I can't see the mouse going any place for a long time. Eye tracking or a USB port into the back of the head are the only viable-ish alternatives I can imagine due to the extremely precise and fast interaction needed.

BahUnfair• 16 years ago

Tell that to the console gamers...

P.S: I can't help but think the "death of.." articles are just to get page views with sensational titles and articles, mind you thats been the standard for newspapers since before the net.

electromagnetic• 16 years ago

Actually for the longest time console games relied heavily on auto-aim features to actually make the online games competitive.

I play both between console and desktop and whilst I find console play more fun, I do find I'm far better at desktop. In Unreal Tournament I was known for my crazy Ion Canon bombings (alternate fire several times and then hit each one with a regular fire to make them explode from well across the map), this transferred over to Halo where I was known for my carbine headshots at similar crazy range... on Xbox I'm now known for shotgun and melee because the aiming fucking sucks, still generally lead on a server though so I can't complain too much!

xd2• 16 years ago

I was waiting for someone to bring this up :)

Does anyone know of an FPS multiplayer game that users can play from both a PC and consoles? It would be interesting to see the outcome .. and I know where my money will be.

viraptor• 16 years ago

Well... there's a reason Quake-like fast-paced games are not popular on consoles. Sure - I have no problems playing slower games like Deus Ex on a controller, but for typical multiplayer FPSes that wouldn't work. Essentially you just learn now much you move the mouse to do a 180 turn and you have it in muscule memory. The moment you move the mouse, you start turning. With controllers where you actually control the acceleration of the movement, that experience is much worse. You simply cannot make a precise turn around on the spot without a lot of training. On top of that you're usually limited to the specific number of buttons unfortunately.

Of course you won't notice most of those issues on the console games... because they're designed so that you don't need more than N buttons, they're not as fast as promode quake, they add other elements to shift the idea from the raw fps (multiplayer q1/q3-pm being prime examples probably) to a goal based game, team play, etc.

bad_user• 16 years ago

By mouse I understand the ability to move the mouse pointer and left/right click.

At a conference it's better to go light, just with your laptop/netbook, carrying a real mouse around doesn't make sense, but when standing in front of a computer at work or home for several hours a real mouse is still more comfortable/ergonomic than a touchpad, although I do find the touchpad more comfortable in situations where I do lots of typing, since it's closer to the keyboard.

I get the trend of smaller / lighter / more portable ... I haven't used a desktop in 2 years. But I still use a good keyboard and mouse when I'm at my desk; anything less is just for superficial usage.

motters• 16 years ago

I've recently started using a tablet/pen, and for most purposes it's a good mouse replacement, and it's also better for sketching. Using buttons on the pen is a bit fiddly, but tapping the pen is an equivalent in most situations. For playing traditional kinds of PC games I notice that the mouse is still by far the best option though.

Death Of The Mouse?

Related Stories