Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190807-why-finland-leads-the-world-in-flexible-work

by algui91 • 7 years ago

140 128 7 years ago

bbc.com

Quipunotch104• 7 years ago

Everyday I love this country a little more...

algui914• 7 years ago

Nordic countries are so advanced in so many things... Look at Swede, with its 6 hours/day of work.

thecopy• 7 years ago

What? Sweden works 40 hours per week.

eionh• 7 years ago

Why $culturally_homogeneous_and_highly_educated_country leads the world in $social_wellness

fsloth3• 7 years ago

The article was very specific about the culture of flexible working hours, not a general set piece about social wellness.

All you need to do is set aside the notion that modern productivity equals having everyone at their desk at the same time. What does cultural homogeneity have to do with it?

rayiner5• 7 years ago

What does cultural homogeneity have to do with it?

Homogenous cultures have an easier time agreeing to all do the same thing. It’s called establishing social norms. I went to a STEM magnet high school that was about 1/3 Asian when I was there and is now 2/3 Asian. It was already known as a pressure cooker when I was a kid, and the competitiveness went way up since then. Why? Well I was one of those Asians. My dad grew up in a village in Bangladesh, moves his family to the US through hard work and a lot of luck. When I was in high school he told me I had to work 16 hours a day to be successful. I understand the arguments for limiting working hours at an intellectual level, but my gut reaction is to try do a little more than the next guy to get ahead. Even if it’s more for show than substance. And I’m raising my kids to do that too, because it’s my culture! (I can’t even really help it. My daughter is already kind of a striver to begin with, and my natural reaction is to reinforce those instincts.)

maeln3• 7 years ago

Let's look at a simple fact: Finland as a Parliament of 200 seat for a population of roughly 5.5 million. France as a Parliament of 577 seat for a population of roughly 67 million.

Thats around 3 times more representative per citizen.

It's more like more democracy = more social wellness.

EDIT: To have the same amount of representative in France, we would need ~1900 députés, which mean 19 députés per département, and ~6 députés per arondissement.

szemet• 7 years ago

In many countries every member of the parliament push the button decided by their party[1] - so one representative per party would be sufficient:

it would be much cheaper salary wise - also they could gather in a small meeting room somewhere ;) And those countries would stay as much "democratic" as now, just without the Potemkin village of the parliament...

[1] edit: by "party" I mean not the representatives, or all the party as a whole, but the leader of the party / or a smallish leading group

alkonaut4• 7 years ago

Finland has 4-5000 trees per person. Clearly it's the abundance of trees that creates the social wellness.

mothsonasloth• 7 years ago

Its interesting how there are 3 top rated articles today on working hours / patterns.

HNcantBtrustd2• 7 years ago

I can't fathom what life is like in such a small country.

If 1 major company goes out of business, does it cause chaos?

High unemployment and lower tax revenue sounds like any moment the country could find itself in an economic depression.

In my local area this almost happened.

jks• 7 years ago

Yes, the fall of Nokia (even though it didn't go completely out of business) had a big impact, especially in some regions. Here is a rough timeline: https://www.quora.com/How-has-the-decline-of-Nokia-affected-...

HNcantBtrustd2• 7 years ago

It doesn't explain what life is like due to losing that industry.

We are told of Utopia in Europe, but aren't told these stories.

WaylonKenning• 7 years ago

I'm from New Zealand. What's our major companies? None of them employ more than 20,000 employees globally. Sure that's a lot of people to lose a job, but the big companies are building, groceries, airlines, and telecommunications. If the companies go under, the demand for the products doesn't disappear.

As for unemployment rate, 3.9%. Pretty close to the UK, USA, China.

As for tax, on $100K USD, you'd be taxed 28.3% on your income, and 15% on your consumption via GST.

verttii14• 7 years ago

Interesting, since New Zealand is in many ways comparable with Finland.

In Finland the tax rate for $100K USD would be 41.3% on average. The common consumption tax is 24% (VAT). On top of that, certain goods like alcohol, gas, cars, could have additional goods specific tax that could be well over 100%.

Unemployment stands at I think 6.6%.

mxuribe6• 7 years ago

I had heard of numerous great things of New Zealand related to jobs (low unemployment), good salaries/wages, etc...And then i read something the other day about either Auckland or Wellington being the cities with among the highest costs of living, as compared to other global cities (like, really high on the list). I guess it sort of shocked me....Mind you, I'm not an economist, but I naively assumed that healthy economies wouldn't necessarily have such cities/regions with disproportionately high costs of living. But, I guess in the case of (again, sorry for not recalling exactly which city it was) Auckland or Wellington, it sure sounds like it to me. Nevertheless, I look forward to visiting your beautiful country, and contributing my tourist money to your economy! ;-)

eloisant3• 7 years ago

All these countries are well connected to the rest of Europe, so even if one big company goes down there's still business to do with all the neighbors.

mxuribe6• 7 years ago

Since then, discussions about the benefits of flexible working have intensified around the world, with a boom in large global companies embracing the concept...

I sure hope companies operating in U.S. adopt this behavior more and more. It always seems like in the U.S. we work harder and not necessarily smarter; certainly not healthier. I'm envious of the health-related foundations that other countries at least try to establish for their citizens. I'm tired of chasing the dollar, and wish to only pursue happiness. </sigh>

verttii14• 7 years ago

On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not. But you're right, it doesn't necessarily lead to a better health to work harder, however, often it does lead to better business results.

toxik• 7 years ago

Citation needed on that. Scandinavian work ethic and culture is in my opinion good, and puts emphasis on overcoming hierarchical inertia (e.g. we don't use titles) and lateral thinking in a way that I feel North Americans don't, rather, the emphasis is on "the grind." Putting in insane hours, staying after the boss, etc. A thin veneer of productivity if you ask me. The reason the US excels in business is, I would say, being more willing to sell out their people, though they're probably meeting their match with China and Asia in general now.

mxuribe6• 7 years ago

...often it does lead to better business results.

I think you're absolutely correct...but, lately, I've been questioning the whole premise that better business results are even a worthwhile pursuit...at least for me personally. If I bring in an additional $1MM of new value every year for my employer, i had to work really hard for that, and i only get a little pat on the head; and in the process have lost so much (mentally, physiologically, etc.). Certainly, I'm going through an existential change in my life, and as such little to no amount of justification of an American capitalist approach will make as much sense for me...But, nowadays, i really just want to chill a little bit, slow down, smell the roses, etc. And, ultimately, it feels for me that the U.S. seems like less of a place - profession-wise - to enable one to do that. (Sorry for the gloom.)

Someone12343• 7 years ago

I dispute the "better business results" claim, I don't think that's factually true. But let's assume it is, why then is wealth so much more concentrated[0] in the US?

Let's assume that the US did have "better business results" and let's also assume that that is the result of worse working conditions. Why then are the workers, working in worse conditions, not benefiting from it directly?

Seems like, if that were true, the US is working average workers harder so that the ultra-wealthy can get even wealthier. Does that benefit society at large?

PS - I'd like to link this, called "The Nordic Model"[1] discusses a lot of good (and bad) about that part of the world.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_eq...

[1] https://economics.mit.edu/files/5726

coldtea7• 7 years ago

On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not.

Like what? From birth mortality to all kinds of quality of life indicators its well below most of these countries...

AdrianB15• 7 years ago

I am working in an American company for 17.5 years, most from home (12 years) with occasional visits to the local branch office (Europe) and sometimes to the headquarter in US. I work on different time zones as needed and it gives me some flexibility, but longer hours to make up for it.

It works for me, but for each case where it worked I have another 5 where it was so and so and probably 10 where it was bad for the employee. This is because people tend to work longer hours, lose connection with the team (they are not in the office at the same time), it is harder to find someone when you need them because they work different hours that change a lot. Flexible working has advantages, but it also has disadvantages and trust is not part of the equation most of the time, presence, interactivity and coordination, human connections that are created face to face, these are much more important.

outside12342• 7 years ago

Nokia is a good example of why this doesn't work.

As soon as there was a talented company that wanted to work hard for the market (Apple), Nokia was toast.

pjc50• 7 years ago

Surely Apple is an example of working smarter rather than harder?

verttii14• 7 years ago

it's of both. Nokia was heavily constrained by the Finnish labor laws and working culture.

rapunkill• 7 years ago

No, bad example. Nokia failed because they were using windows mobile instead of Android.

In 2011 Nokia started using windows phone os which, at the time, no one knew if it was going to catch on. In 2014 Microsoft bought the phone division and kept the OS although at that point it was clear that it was not going to work out. Operation stopped in 2017.

starsinspace• 7 years ago

Then how about Motorola, a US company in the same market segment, which also failed?

dlphn___xyz• 7 years ago

im pretty sure scandanavia leads the world in quality of life

verttii14• 7 years ago

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.j...

iikoolpp• 7 years ago

Finland isn't Scandanavia.

freehunter• 7 years ago

In common English usage it often is:

In English usage, Scandinavia also sometimes refers to the Scandinavian Peninsula, or to the broader region including Finland and Iceland, which is always known locally as the Nordic countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia

acd• 7 years ago

I can highly recommend the world to adopt like in the Nordics at least 4-5 weeks of yearly vacation. Staff are more rested with more vacation so they are more productive plus you get a different perspective having time off. Also companies should allow remote work and flexible hours. Further due to increased automation we could actually work less hours keeping the same output. If we automate more work we could allow us selves more free time, still enjoying the same output.

I think tech companies will lead the way because of the competitive nature hunting for talent. Hopefully other industries will follow. Maybe California as state will lead the way in the US?

Annual leave by country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...

bitL2• 7 years ago

Increased productivity doesn't lead to increased wages and increased automation doesn't lead to less work/lower number of days/hours at work. Management plays dominance game, that only works when employees are made feel frustrated and stressed; any move towards happiness like reduced hours and work from home/remotely diminishes any gains from dominance game; relaxed employees with many options would require any monetary gains from productivity to be reflected on their paychecks.

jgust2• 7 years ago

You state this like it's a natural fact. That's how it is in many places, _today_. It doesn't have to be this way. As far as I know, there is no law of physics that has us locked into this way of operating society.

dominicr2• 7 years ago

One effect of this in the Nordic culture is that often a lot of these holidays are taken at the same time. People take 3 or 4 weeks off at once between the end of June and early August, especially in Norway. Productivity for the company effectively hits zero for 6 weeks whilst the Norwegians have their holiday, then the Swedish and Danish have their turn.

Although the few people that do work get a lot done due to having no meetings or interruptions. There were days in the summer where there were 3 of us in the office, out of 200 in the department. Bliss!

miskin• 7 years ago

I worked in Finland in 2001-2002 in what we would call now startup and even lead managers or scientists in company were not in the office in July-August. They simply worked more during winter and spent as much of Finnish summer outside as possible. But as article mentions, it was usual to take long vacations even in government jobs - if you needed visa for your relative, you'd better have it before June, or you would get it in September, since clerks were out of office :).

henrikschroder• 7 years ago

There's an important second-order benefit to this though:

Companies are forced to ensure that their business works without key personnel for weeks at a time. It forces the company to really think about what situations are emergencies where you have to disturb key personnel on their vacation, and which ones you can actually handle anyway.

In contrast in the US, a common office-politics anti-pattern is that individuals make themselves indispensable to the business, as a form of employment protection. This is ultimately bad for the company, because people quit, people change jobs, and then the business is threatened every time such an individual quits.

When every employee is gone for weeks at a time every year, it gives the company opportunity to identify weak spots like this and work around them. And this pays off whenever key personnel leaves their job, for whatever reason.

AdrianB15• 7 years ago

It is fairly easy to pick up a success, make a story around it and generalize. But in the same time Finland is at the top of European countries on the depression. Is there any relation between flexible work and depression? No idea, just throwing random "leads the world" facts.

verttii14• 7 years ago

I really doubt it's that. Probably more to do with how little sunshine there is over the winter (which is long and cold).

znpy• 7 years ago

God that kind of articles are awful. Don't tell me an effing child fable, just lay the facts.

Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

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