Returning Due Process to Campus

https://www.city-journal.org/john-doe-v-purdue-univ

by jseliger • 7 years ago

80 30 7 years ago

city-journal.org

dillonmckay2• 7 years ago

At least public universities have some accountability to the law.

barry-cotter• 7 years ago

Any university that takes federal funds is amply exposed to the law of an administration wishes to so expose it.

dillonmckay2• 7 years ago

However, a state university is also bound by the laws of the state, and are responsible to the voters at some basic level.

sverige• 7 years ago

Maybe someday we can find the middle ground between railroading undergrads with no evidence and taking decades to stop predators like Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Cosby and probably countless others.

ultrarunner• 7 years ago

I wonder what the qualitative differences between Epstein/Cosby and college undergrads could be.

pmiller22• 7 years ago

Do you really? You don’t know what the difference between rich and powerful men and a bunch of mostly no-name nobody young adults?

deephony• 7 years ago

I think the point was that at one point Epstein and Cosby were as powerless as a railroadable undergrad. Dialing in the right false positive / false negative tradeoff us hard.

ryacko• 7 years ago

Having a ruling class that is actually aligned with the interests of their lower classes?

kortilla• 7 years ago

Maybe just use the existing legal system and don’t invent another one inside of the campus?

jMyles• 7 years ago

I know a lot of people here already know this story, but it's worth mentioning: while in college, I was railroaded through the judicial system in political retaliation after winning the Presidency of the Student Body. This was 13 years ago now. Crazy story.

Here's a documentary that a bunch of us put together about it:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL11F04BB4661C2CC3

Some aspects the Purdue case resonate with mine. Others not so much.

I did learn a lot about how little oversight there is over these processes and how much corrupt officials count on the qualified immunity doctrine.

twic• 7 years ago

Is this written up anywhere? I'm not about to watch an 85-minute (!) documentary.

bootlooped• 7 years ago

It has always struck me as a very weird practice for colleges to be adjudicating criminal matters like rape.

jnwatson• 7 years ago

Part of the problem is the abdication of most police forces and DAs to prosecute rape, date rape in particular.

The university system fills the gap, sometimes poorly.

cascom• 7 years ago

I’m not sure it’s an abdication - but rather the result of the “beyond a reasonable doubt” standard being hard to overcome in a “he said she said” situation.

voodootrucker• 7 years ago

According to the policy, I'm going to interpret this in the most generous light, but:

1. At 15:12 MT, this had 11 votes and was on the front page 2. Almost immediately after, this was flagged 3. The comments that say "56 minutes ago" where already there 4. It is now 16:54 MT (1:52 ago)

I think there is a bug in HN timestamps, and also (subjectively) the moderation.

dang• 7 years ago

We turned off the flags on the post and rolled back the clock on it by about an hour, since that's about how long it was flagged.

leepowers• 7 years ago

It's a moral panic, at least in part. Panic explains why due process is ignored and why accusations are considered unassailable. But questioning accusations is not the same as denying them. And while reliving trauma is a risk it can be mitigated by using an intermediary like a lawyer or therapist.

Another piece is the increasing insular nature of some institutions. Ideas ricochet within the walled gardens of higher ed, gain momentum, and lead to results that appear zany to the outside world. Focus is needed to study; but insular practices are creating campuses that are worlds unto themselves.

That's not to say we shouldn't agitate against bad practices in society. Real progress is being made in the real world to combat sexual assault and sex crimes.[1] But it's hard to see how campus protestors are having any positive impact outside their hallowed halls.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2019/07/nati...

cheez2• 7 years ago

Glad to see that this type of thing is getting reversed. If you believe all accusations without the most basic of investigations, you are on the edge of a very slippery slope.

It's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question them 5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or exaggerating keeps their story straight.

I had a friend who was the victim of a false allegation but he fought very hard and people lost their jobs over it because they didn't follow basic investigative procedures. In the end, he was out time, money and peace of mind because someone was vindictive - he wanted to break up with her. It of course helped that he was rich enough to fund a multi-pronged attack.

The woman received no repercussions.

EliRivers• 7 years ago

It's generally very simple to find out if someone is lying: just question them 5-6 different times about what happened. No one who is lying or exaggerating keeps their story straight.

I understand that the same can be true of people who are not lying or exaggerating. Every time we remember something, the memories change. I'd be surprised if someone managed the exact same story when questioned 5-6 different times.

baud147258• 7 years ago

Regarding the Atlantic article, which puts an important emphasis on DNA proof in case of sexual assault, it was ironic to see a article linked on that page, which critiqued the reliance on DNA proof in case of sexual assault (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/06/a-reaso...)

throwaway3627• 7 years ago

There's two double-standards at play:

- victimhood hierarchy - prioritizing obscure identity attributes over the person.

- elite apartheid - celebrities, rich, popular, beautiful don't have to play by the same rules or receive the same punishments as everyone else. Also, the very bottom of society receives far more punishment than the middle.

Furthermore, there are several ambiguous, likely unknowable by anyone else, situations in the case of rape, because it's often a s/he-said situation due often to a lack of unbiased witnesses or solid evidence:

- Whether there was force or not

- Whether there was explicit, implicit or no consent

- If there was consent, was it later revoked or not, explicitly or weakly

- Is the allegation for actual harm or ego-/guilt-/remorse/-alleviation/revenge/enjoyment/attention

Actual rape isn't good, but an unfair/unnecessarily unpleasant process to suss-out what may/may not be possible to discover doesn't help either. It's very tricky.

cannonedhamster• 7 years ago

Not sure why the article had to bend into politics. There was more than enough evidence to support their position without going into a Democrats versus Trump/DeVoss angle to make a claim that this was somehow Democrats doing. I think it's fair to say that any time you're having an adversarial process it's going to be difficult on both parties, there's clear cases of abuse that are missed, cases of poor/missed communications between people, cases of anger, cases where both parties were in a bad state to make adult decisions. College campuses in particular are, in America, the first time that real responsibilities of the world are levied at many young adults.

When it comes down to it, in cases of date rape, awkward sexual encounters, spousal/lover abuse, and all the messy areas of humanity in between, there's no way to get every bad actor, sometimes there's not enough evidence, and that's a terrible place to have to be. Sometimes the courts and tribunals are going to get it wrong, and that's another terrible place to be. That doesn't mean that we don't do everything within our power to make places of learning, both inside and outside the classroom, as safe as possible. That doesn't mean we ignore our responsibility to each other to attempt to make right cases of provable injustice. That also means that we don't destroy lives without evidence. Difficult decisions are the cornerstone of adult lives.

hermitdev• 7 years ago

I was nearly involved in a sexual assault case in college.

7 of us were in my dorm room, watching a movie on my computer. 3 girls, 4 guys, including myself. My roommate and I had our beds bunked, him on the bottom, me up top. The accuser was laying next to my roommate on his bunk, I was laying on mine, everyone else was in chairs.

The accuser, like halfway through the movie abruptly gets up and leaves without saying a word. Not a "no", "stop" or anything. Just silence and left. The 6 of us remain were like wtf? Then finished the movie and watched another.

The next week, one of the other girls told us guys something to the effect of: "you won't believe the shit I'm hearing. (Accuser) is saying she was sexually assaulted by you guys the night we were watching movies. And I know that didnt happen, I was right there."

We knew we didn't do anything, but we're scared shitless. One of the guys was an international student and was worried about being deported if expelled while on his student visa.

We nipped it in the bud by the lot of us going immediately to the Dean of Students to address it. He hadn't even heard the accusation yet. He believed us that the accusation was bullshit (the accusation was that somone unhooked her bra without her consent). 6 people vs 1 helped a lot. This was in 2000 and Universities assuming guilt was already prevalent then. We were pretty terrified.

I dont know what the accuser's thoughts were. Maybe she was seeking attention. I just dont know and nearly 20 years later, don't care. But she traumatized 6 people with a false allegation spread by rumors.

All of that said, it's important to investigate ALL allegations of assault/abuse, but it's simultaneously important to not rush to judgement and assume guilt. Due process is prescribed in the US Constitution for a reason. (Admittedly this might not hold for all private schools, but it should still be a guiding principle.)

crimsonalucard• 7 years ago

There's always motive when someone does something. People don't do things for no reason or just because they are crazy. The question is why did she do the thing that she did. When I look at all realistic scenarios someone may have unhooked the bra.

But I'm also thinking it's not big enough a deal to report it either. I mean come on, my ex punched me (hard) on the shoulder before, that's enough to put her in jail.

pyuser583• 7 years ago

Here’s the thing - universities can’t compel people to testify. And there are no consequences for retaliating against witnesses.

Until universities can compel testimony and subpoena evidence from everyone, including non-students/employees, they can’t have fair proceedings.

Until they have that power, they should be severely restricted in what negative negative findings they can make.

An accuser/accused who had to beg people to testify in their support isn’t likely to get justice.

Mirioron• 7 years ago

Would you really be comfortable with universities having that power? This sounds like something law enforcement and courts should handle, not an institution for education. This should be completely removed as a capability from the educational institution.

pmiller22• 7 years ago

Here’s the thing, too: sexual assault is a crime. Universities shouldn’t even be investigating crimes at all. That should fall to law enforcement. And, if a conviction is obtained by the appropriate authorities (who do have the power to compel testimony and such), then the university should impose appropriate punishments, up to, and including expulsion or revocation of degrees.

Returning Due Process to Campus

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