Kevin Connolly's guide to American culture

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/9294890.stm

by shrikant • 16 years ago

68 56 16 years ago

news.bbc.co.uk

FrancescoRizzi• 16 years ago

Good read!

scrrr• 16 years ago

At first I thought it was Kevin Connolly, the actor from Entourage. That would have been something! :)

araneae• 16 years ago

Why, is he a better writer than this Kevin Connolly?

tritowntim• 16 years ago

This Kevin Connolly is certainly a better actor.

hugh32• 16 years ago

Largely matches my experiences as a long-term visitor to the US. Particular points that made me nod my head:

But the rejoinder "you're welcome", which once greeted almost any expression of thanks in America, is in retreat. In its place is a sort of wordless acknowledgement, halfway between a grunt and a hum, "mm-hmmm". It is a sound that acknowledges your thanks but implies that no great joy has been found in helping you either.

I'd almost forgotten about this, but on my first day in the US I thanked a hotel clerk for some service and got an "mmm-hmm" acknowledgement and it felt incredibly rude. I suppose I don't even notice it any more.

anthuswilliams• 16 years ago

For some reason, I always thought this phenomenon was imported from Europe. I lived in a European tourist mecca for a few years, and whenever I would thank a European for something, they wouldn't say "you're welcome" or even an "mm-hmm". Usually they just smiled and nodded.

I can see how it might appear a little brusque though. Americans, particularly here out west, tend to put on an air of stoicism, so our "mm-hmm" probably comes without a smile or even a glance in your direction. But I've interpreted that to mean that I am being helped as a matter of course, not for the sake of propriety or some sense of obligation.

ZeroGravitas• 16 years ago

America has enormous debts but it still spends as much money on defence as all the rest of the world put together.

And if that makes you uncomfortable, it is worth remembering that wherever you are, there is a good chance that if your country is ever invaded, your leader's first phone call will be to the White House in Washington.

My first immediate thought was the remote chance of my country being invaded. This led almost instantly to the uncharitable thought that if I found myself in another random country, the odds are good (historically and looking to the future) that it would be the US doing the invading. Amusingly the last sentence of the quote still makes sense in this scenario.

jamesbressi3• 16 years ago

The U.S doesn't invade, sheesh, rather "occupy", and having company is a priceless cure for loneliness... Although looking at the U.S. National Debt, someone is trying to put a price on keeping other places company.

lucasjung6• 16 years ago

Let's break this down a little:

If you are a U.S. ally, you are unlikely to be invaded by the U.S. (kinda goes without saying, and you can insert pretty much any country you like in place of U.S. and the sentence remains true).

If you are a U.S. ally, what are your odds of being invaded by someone other than the U.S.? Very low. Why? For the same reason that your leader would call the U.S. if you were invaded. What if you're not in a formal alliance with the U.S.? Odds are still pretty good that any potential aggressor will, before planning an attack, ask himself, "Will the U.S. intervene if I invade my neighbor?" If the answer is "yes," he probably won't invade. Keep in mind that the U.S. has fought wars because someone figured, incorrectly, that the answer was "no."

OK, what if you're not at all friendly with the U.S.? In this case, there are a lot of other factors that come into play. Are you a peer power? If not, have you aligned yourself with such a power? If so, how much are you worth to them? How about nukes, do you have nukes? If not, can you fake it credibly? Are you generally belligerent and aggressive, or do you mostly mind your own business? Keep in mind, these questions aren't just factors in determining your chances of being invaded by the U.S., they are factors in determining your chances of being invaded by anyone at all.

Summary: if your chances of being invaded are very low, it's most likely because of the existence of the U.S. military. If that's not the reason, it's because you have a comparable military, or have aligned yourself with somebody who does. If you're not on good terms with the U.S. you're in a more precarious position not just because the U.S. might invade you, but also because everyone else knows that the U.S. won't intervene on your behalf. If you have nukes, only crazy people will invade you, unless you act so crazy that the sane countries decide that it's worth the risk to try and take them away, since you'll probably use them sooner or later anyway.

bsk• 16 years ago

This comment doesn't make any sense IMHO ;-)

gwern2• 16 years ago

And then there is Georgia, which is reading your post and going 'lolwut?'

jamesbressi3• 16 years ago

I think we as Americans have a very bipolar feeling about everything America and can be very cynical and I really thought this article would feed our cynicism.

I was pleasantly surprised and rightfully reminded about some of the greater points of our country and culture and it was refreshing... A foreigner being offered a ride from the airport without a stutter of consideration and being told "this is America, son, we help each other out"... that if the fact that the U.S. Spends as much money on defense as the whole world combined concerns you, remember that the White House would he the first call made from your country if you were invaded... I chuckled at the elevator comment... and so on.

Well done. A tad too simple, but makes for a nice light quick read.

borism• 16 years ago

White House would he the first call made from your country if you were invaded

not if you were invaded by order from the White House, but I guess it doesn't count.

lucasjung6• 16 years ago

"But the rejoinder "you're welcome", which once greeted almost any expression of thanks in America, is in retreat.

In its place is a sort of wordless acknowledgement, halfway between a grunt and a hum, "mm-hmmm". It is a sound that acknowledges your thanks but implies that no great joy has been found in helping you either."

I agree with this 100% up until the last sentence, where he clearly indicates that he just doesn't get what's actually happening in these cases. Where I see this happening, is when people say "Thank You" over-enthusiastically, or in response to things that were done as a matter of course and deserve no thanks. The person being thanked is taken off-guard and slightly embarrassed to have been thanked for something which he would have done anyway. It feels like saying "You're Welcome," would be to acknowledge the thanks-worthiness of the act in question, which would be a form of dishonesty, so they can't say that. On the other hand, it would be unambiguously rude to say nothing, so they mumble something non-committal in a vague attempt to to say, more or less, "Really, it's nothing." Why don't they just say that? Probably because they are taken off guard and slightly embarrassed.

The really perplexing thing about this is that just a few paragraphs later, he gives a prime example of this effect in action:

"It is curiously moving to see them sitting looking a little embarrassed as a pilot or flight attendant calls on their fellow passengers to give their service and sacrifice a standing ovation."

They don't generally think of what they are doing as some sort of great sacrifice or heroic endeavor: they think of it as a job, and also as a way to give back to a country which has given them much. If you look at their rank insignia, the majority of them are very junior, unlikely to have done anything in their thus-far short careers other than attend training. They're probably thinking, "These people think I'm some kind of war hero, and I haven't even done any real work yet, let alone deployed." I personally think that their service is nonetheless praiseworthy, but I'm not talking about the actual merits of their actions, I'm talking about their perception of those merits. So when every ticket agent, TSA screener, gate agent, or flight attendant they come across says, "Thank you for your service," they don't really feel justified in saying, "You're welcome." Most eventually learn to smile brightly, look the other person in the eye, and cheerfully say, "You're Welcome," because they learn that this is another form of service: it makes Americans feel good to express gratitude to those in uniform.

[EDITED a couple of typos]

jamesbressi3• 16 years ago

Fantastic observation and I agree 99.9%... definitely something that is unique in the U.S. that would be difficult for someone who did not grow up in the current and evolving climate and culture to understand.

arethuza• 16 years ago

I recently saw an example of just this thing on a visit to Texas - where a passer by thanked a colleague for his service (he recently returned from serving in Iraq), I thought this was rather touching but also as someone from Britain, from my perspective, very odd indeed - for no easily identifiable reason.

hugh32• 16 years ago

Really? Because I've scored the old "mmm-hmmm" from perfectly normal "thankyous" performed for perfectly normal services.

"I'd like a cup of coffee" "Here you go" "Thanks" "Mmmm-hmmmmmm"

In Australia we'd just go "Sure" or "No problem" or something.

"It is curiously moving to see them sitting looking a little embarrassed as a pilot or flight attendant calls on their fellow passengers to give their service and sacrifice a standing ovation."

I've never seen anything like this, I can only imagine that being embarrassing all round if it ever happened. Though I certainly have seen soldiers looking embarrassed upon being thanked by random strangers in airports.

iron_ball• 16 years ago

People seem to hate "no problem" too. People get really touchy about the smallest things... did you know that some people take it as a deadly insult if you place their change on the counter instead of placing it carefully in their hand?

jcnnghm• 16 years ago

I know that I personally stopped, and never really started, saying "you're welcome" because I never really understood the point of it. When I was taught manners as a child, it always seemed to me that people did things because they got off on being thanked, then welcoming people for that thanks. That never made sense to me, I always did things because I wanted to do them, or it made sense to do them, and expected no thanks. I guess I never say you're welcome, because I don't really expect to be thanked. I'll usually say yep or mumble something, because while I do acknowledge and appreciate thanks, I don't expect it or welcome it.

adam-a• 16 years ago

I think this is exactly the point the article is making here. He doesn't _criticise_ Americans for not saying "You're welcome" - he calls that "over-effusive politeness". Saying that "no great joy" has been found in some service is practically a paraphrase of your "things that were done as a matter of course and deserve no thanks". You are assuming he's being negative, I think he's just being plain.

I went to America for the first time earlier this year, having grown up in the UK I found the "mmm-hmm" thing quite suprising. I agree though that thanking every sales person you see in your day for every small service is somewhat ridiculous.

seanalltogether2• 16 years ago

When bbc correspondent Justin Webb left america his quotes have always stuck in my head. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspon...

"There is something about the carelessness of America that gives space for greatness."

"If you do not like your life and you have drive and luck, you can change it because - being American - you believe you can change it."

"But if Sonia Sotomayor is to make it big, there must be something creating the drive, and part of that something is the poverty of the alternative, the discomfort of the ordinary lives that most Americans endure and the freedom that Americans have to go to hell if that is the decision they take. This is the atmosphere in which Nobel Prize winners are nurtured. A nation which will one day mass produce a cure for type one diabetes, could not, would not, save little Kara Neumann from the bovine idiocy of her religious parents."

andrewcooke2• 16 years ago

I've been living in the USA for 3 months now, and he doesn't mention the thing I find most surprising / disturbing / worrying / uncomfortable, which is the amazingly strong correlation between wealth and skin colour. Sure, this exists in S America where I was living before, but I expected better in the "first world".

J3L24044• 16 years ago

I agree to a certain extent, but even more disconcerting is the difference between blacks from Britain and Americans who are black. The British have a confidence and ease of manner which is sadly not present with their American counterparts. It's as if black Americans are constantly looking over their shoulders and don't believe they are secure to be themselves. I see no trace of this in blacks from Europe.

seanalltogether2• 16 years ago

Europe still has plenty of behind-the-back discrimination of ethnic groups though, and conversely I think people in the UK have an ease of manner about saying racist things. America is very confrontational about it's racism, for better or worse.

tptacek5• 16 years ago

This stuff is making me cringe. "Black Americans" aren't looking over their shoulders. People from a pervasive underclass are acting in ways society has conditioned to, whether they're black families living in a rowhouse in Englewood or white families living in a shack in Missouri.

I live in one of the most "segregated" cities in the United States, literally on one of its fault lines (my alley divides White Suburban Chicago from Black Urban Chicago). White or black, the people on my block are confident and secure and happy and generally pissed off or insecure about the same things I am; meanwhile, the people across the alley are living amongst dogfighting rings, hand-to-hand retail drug dealing, and flashing blue police cameras.

It's not a "black" and "white" thing and it's naive to express surprise about it. We all know how it got to be that way. There is no magic wand you can wave to lift 115,000 people out of social, educational, and economic poverty. Except maybe, maybe, by pouring billions of dollars into their public schoools.

tptacek5• 16 years ago

The Civil Rights act wasn't even 50 years ago. Exactly how does this surprise you?

Incidentally: you want to see that correlation in Europe? Go for a walk in the Paris suburbs.

lucasjung6• 16 years ago

Or Turks and Germans in Germany.

andrewcooke2• 16 years ago

Heh. That reminds me. The other thing that surprised me is just how complacent Americans are about the inequality.

RK2• 16 years ago

FWIW, I think the US has the wealthiest population of African or African decedents in the world. Of course this may be simply a function of the average wealth of the US.

On the other hand, I think you will see the same kind of skin color based wealth stratification in every country in the world, developed or not.

anamax• 16 years ago

> I've been living in the USA for 3 months now, and he doesn't mention the thing I find most surprising / disturbing / worrying / uncomfortable, which is the amazingly strong correlation between wealth and skin colour.

Are you referring to the Indians or the Asians?

cafard• 16 years ago

About a month ago at a train station I brought a suitcase down an elevator for a woman with a baby. She thanked me in an English accent; I blush to say that I said "no problem" rather than "you're welcome." I knew at once that I was at fault there, but went on my way.

On the other hand, isn't "de rien" thought an appropriate reply to "merci"?

ekanes• 16 years ago

I don't see what's wrong with saying "no problem" honestly. In statements like this, so much more is conveyed with your tone of voice, facial expression and body language. If you meant it, you could have said "have a nice day!" "sure thing!" or "you got it!" or even "well, see you around!" and it wouldn't matter... ultimately what you're really doing is acknowledging the thank-you, and not leaving the person hanging.

Semiapies4• 16 years ago

Exactly - you did nothing wrong, cafard. You helped someone out, and you acknowledged her thanks in a friendy (if informal) way.

paganel• 16 years ago

> He left behind one or two books that are still worth reading, but his most important legacy was his simplest.

Was this irony/sarcasm? Because my detector is off.

First of all, I read his 2 volumes of "Democracy in America" a couple of years ago, right after I had read Thucydides's "History of the Peloponnesian War" and just before reading Lord Acton's essays on liberty, and I challenge any of today's economists/political thinkers to come up with something at least 50% better.

Second, Tocqueville's "L'Ancien Régime et la Révolution" is in my opinion the book that best describes/explains the French Revolution, which I also think is the event that most defines the last 200 years of Western history and political thought, starting from Kant and continuing with guys like Marx and Lenin.

boredguy8• 16 years ago

It's understatement, a form of irony. Think, "'Tis but a scratch," or, "It's just a flesh wound," from Holy Grail.

lispm• 16 years ago

Reminds me of a Gandhi quote:

When Gandhi was asked what he thought of Western Culture, he said: "I think it would be a good idea."

snowliger• 16 years ago

Here's another Gandhi quote:

Regarding forcible registration with the state of blacks: “One can understand the necessity for registration of Kaffirs who will not work.” (Reference: CWMG, Vol I, p. 105)

crux• 16 years ago

"Its newspapers - with one or two exceptions - are awful.

Endless sub-clauses roam across prairies of newsprint in search of the point, like homesteader wagons on the Oregon trail circling around a knackered old buffalo."

That's quite a claim for a man who seems to revel in that most hated journalist practice.

The one of making every clause its own sentence.

And every sentence its own paragraph.

The result is that he—and his many fellows in this practice—seems really inordinately proud of his every sentence, as though each one of these (rather mediocre and limp, but surely not very objectionable) lines seems like it's supposed to be a punchline. And as punchlines they all fall well short of the mark, leaving me actively annoyed rather than the 'meh' I'd probably get otherwise.

alexgartrell• 16 years ago

So far, I've really only lived (spent 2+ months) in four separate places: Ohio, Pittsburgh, New York City, and San Jose. That said, there is no way in hell I would ever think I could characterize "America" in one essay without specifying a huge number of exceptions for each of Ohio, Pittsburgh, NYC, and Silicon Valley.

Yeah, it's kind of fun to see how someone with a different perspective might characterize us, but this isn't the kind of thing you should read and think "well, that doesn't gel perfectly with my experience," because no account of all American people ever will.

HeyLaughingBoy• 16 years ago

"This is America son," he told me, "We help each other out."

To whomever this old couple are: thank you! If we could all remember that, where ever we are, this world would be a much nicer place.

Semiapies4• 16 years ago

No slight on the guy, because it's a common line, but I'm waiting another decade or two to see someone write this:

"For the first time in history, the current generation of Americans cannot be certain that the generation that comes next will be more prosperous."

for the third consecutive generation.

Semiapies4• 16 years ago

"And America is, of course, an intensely religious place - something that is not difficult to trace to its foundation by a band of hardy religious zealots."

This is such a wildly common bit of historical illiteracy, often reduced to "a nation founded by Puritans".

The Puritans founded settlements in one region. Many other groups, often not religious in structure at all, started all the other settlements that together grew into the 13 original colonies.

And whatever happened to the Puritans? Well, their descendants for the most part are the residents of Massachusetts, not exactly the most right-wing or "intensely-religious" bunch.

Kevin Connolly's guide to American culture

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