Are entrepreneurs in the US biased against developers from East?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1994724

by dooooooofus • 16 years ago

7 6 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I am a developer from India who has had few interactions with some budding developer-entrepreneurs from US. It might not be proper to judge based on these interactions but I felt like something was not right. Their behavior was one of smug feeling of superiority which might be hinting at their insecurity.

This might be an one off case or just an issue with me. But I am interested to know how others feel about the perception that entrepreneurs in US have of Indian developers and how they treat/interact with them.

kls2• 16 years ago

You are running into a two issues, the first being that you are dealing with people who not too long ago's jobs where in jeopardy due to the outsourcing craze. It seemed like ever business man in America could not figure out how to get on this outsourcing craze and fire all of their development staff. A lot of us saw it happen to our good friends, and some of us where too close to the hot seat for comfort. It's unfortunate and it's unfair to you personally, but people like to attach a face to their outrage given that it was Indians taking their jobs naturally they became the face of their frustration. Not everyone thinks like this, and I don't believe that their is racist intent, eastern Europeans experienced this as well, they where late to the cheap outsourcing game so it was less sever, I imaging that if they had been as early to the game as India, they would see the same amount of discontent taken out on them.

The second and I believe more sever issue, is cultural differences in the way India and America do business. It is no great secret that as a culture you guys do not like to deliver bad news. I think it is because as a culture you are as well far more respectful than Americans on average. Coming from the American south, I see this all the time. As a culture we in the south had a concept called southern gentry (this culture has died out) part of there culture is that your are considered of a less social status if you are not hospitable and respectful, there are a group of people that see this as a weakness due to a mis-match of cultures. I was part of the first generation in the south that was more culturally compatible with the rest of America so I see the contrast between the two very well.

Anyway I am derailing with back story to get to my point, the point is this aversion to bad news when applied at the management and project management level can be disastrous to a project. Not getting a complete picture of the bad issues can leave people in the dark and hamper their decision making process. 9 times out of 10, when I hear an India outsourcing horror story it has everything to do with the management of the project and nothing to do with the quality of the developers.

You guys experienced a gold rush, when we decided to outsource development to you, some of your business infrastructure and practices where not ready to do so, it is a natural product of two cultures colliding. I would not take it personal, and would recommend trying to look at the human issues involved, something American developers would be well served to do as well.

jeffmould• 16 years ago

I couldn't agree with you more on the cultural differences and delivery of bad news. I have seen this happen multiple times. The first couple times I thought it had more to do with the way our (US) project managers and developers were communicating the scope and details to their Indian counterparts. After multiple more instances and first hand interactions I came to learn that the biggest issue was the outsourced developers (even from bigger companies) were not giving feedback when issues arose or there were delays. I also found that they would deliver something that was completely off-spec, simply because they didn't understand the original spec.

malandrew• 16 years ago

China and Japan both have a similar issue with bad news and saying "no".

When I worked in China, both my students and school administrators would avoid saying "no". If you are relying on some piece of work being done for product/project success, this approach can also be disastrous because people will say "Yes" to some request that they have absolutely no intention of performing/completing and you may not find out something wasn't done until something fails.

That being said, it's not a race issue, but a cultural issue. Someone of Chinese or Indian descent raised in the US are unlikely to present this cultural incompatibility.

On the otherhand, I think that if this cultural incompatibility exists, it is the manager's responsibility to neutralize it by demonstrating that delivering bad news (or saying "no" when the answer is in fact "no") is valued. This would be preferable to declining a good candidate for the task at hand.

kls2• 16 years ago

given that it was Indians taking their jobs

For the record, I worded the above poorly, I should have phrased it, given that Indians where given their jobs. The former denotes active participation on Indians part. Which is not fair, a man needing to feed his family should not be held to account for accepting a position that someone else took from the original holder.

trobinson• 16 years ago

short answer: yes

longer answer: everybody is subjective. don't think programmers of the east think too greatly of programmers from the west, or programmers from down south. everybody carries a set of cultural assumptions. when outsourcing work (no matter if it's abroad or around the corner) the best approach is to harness the best qualities of every team, not to force them into being something that they're not. the same thing is true when you're working with people in your dorm room.

curt• 16 years ago

From my experience with programmers/engineers 'IN' India and China is that they seem to be far less flexible/creative. They know what they know but if you ask them to solve a problem that they haven't encountered they struggle. I used to outsource a ton of work and remember all the crazy, convoluted solutions they would come back with, most which didn't work or follow the requirements.

I really think it has to do with their structured life and education system that focuses on accomplishments and not on problem solving/creativity (and the fear of being wrong). If I want a generic well-known structure built they are fantastic, but if you push the limits they tend to struggle. I learned to design everything myself and then give them exact instructions on how to accomplish each broken down task. The work improved drastically once I began following this rule.

Are entrepreneurs in the US biased against developers from East?

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